Software diffusion

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Nizar
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Software diffusion

Post by Nizar » 08 Apr 2012, 00:57

Only my curiosity, but is possible know the software diffusion? I'm very curios about. My curiosity born from some simple search I did in different forums (polycount, cgfeedback, cgtalk etc.), and searching the word "softimage" or "XSI" i found, in major part, only old topic and really few discussion where is mentioned expressed XSI or softimage (many, major part, are maya/3dsm discussion where, sporadically someone mentioned softimage)

So, exist some official/unofficial chart about?

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Maximus
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Maximus » 08 Apr 2012, 01:30

AD will never give precise datas about it, you can check Softimage diffusion on those 2 websites:

http://monophyl.com/?p=794

http://www.cgstudiomap.com/

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Nizar
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Nizar » 08 Apr 2012, 10:56

thanks Max

From CGstudio Map I obtained this data:

1) Maya studios: 835
2) 3d Studio Max studios: 756
3) Luxology Modo: 531
3) Lightwave: 531 (based from this site data, every studio based on lightwave have, also, modo)
4) Softimage studios: 329
5) Houdini: 116

This data are related to studios so, I image, don't take in account any freelancers around the world. In this case I think Lightwave and Modo market share quote rise up considerably (I think this two software are more aimed, for price and solutions, to freelance)

Strange Cinema 4d result: if searching Cinema 4d obtaining only a single studio (!), if I write only Cinema obtain only 5 studio, if search only 4d obtain 532 studio

For this site, no one studio adopt Blender, carrara, poser and strata 3d (but, also, no one using Unity or Urealm, so videogames studio are not contemplated?

If this data are a bit reliable, now understood why on others site softimage is ignored or considered moribund, only houdini seems having a less market share, but it is a more expensive and specialized software (I don't know now, but for me softimage is a generalist software very capable in many fields)

Now I'm curios to know softimage and maya market share before acquisition. A friend of mine states that maya/alias was in terrible financial situation and without AD for sure would not be saved from bankruptcy

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Hirazi Blue » 08 Apr 2012, 17:25

I am merely guessing here (or just recalling info badly?), but I think your friend is talking about Alias "original" parent company SGI, that was in very bad financial situation by the time they sold Alias. But they didn't sell it to Autodesk but to a group of investors who seemed to have turned a profit when selling it to Autodesk in the end... (But that's what investors do). The situation at Avid was somewhat similar, but they did sell Softimage to Autodesk directly (at a lower price than Alias).

And as to the numbers of seats used worldwide: studio lists are obviously (as you already stated) no clear indication of the numbers of freelancers using the products. And studio lists sometimes muddle the fact, that most studios use multiple softwares.

A very, very long time ago (before/around the Softimage aqcuisition) there once was an "official" list compiled by a research company, ranking 3d software by actual seats IIRC. This list was highly debatable and thus highly debated, but I cannot seem to find it anymore. Blender came out first, Max 3rd IIRC, I believe Maya was in the top 10 and Softimage fell just outside the 10 ten rankings... (But I am not very certain about the actual ranks and it was like I already stated based on research done "a very, very long time ago"). The main problem with that list, again IIRC, was that it didn't differentiate between commercial use and those pesky hobbyists (like myself).
;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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Maximus
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Maximus » 08 Apr 2012, 19:21

Soft is a niche software thanks god, less diffusion the better. Look what we having now that we got some visibility and more users using it: a view cube, a useless HQviewport, maya/max navigation viewport sets. Whats next? Shiny icons that slow UI down.

When something gets a lot of diffusion is widely used by everyone from a 12 years kid to a 70 years old man. Sadly many people contribute to ruine the quality and professional of the software itself. I hope it wont end like 3ds max or maya, stackin tools without sense one on top of another. Look at houdini, being a niche software is just good, not bad.

Happy easter all.

p.s. yeah i'm still disappointed from last "release".

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Mathaeus
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Mathaeus » 08 Apr 2012, 20:38

I think si-community member luceric mentioned 80% for Max and Maya, the rest of all others. I think it is something like that.
It's really not a secret, Softimage always had a very small number of users, even in Foundation times. If you count ICE into SI skill, this number become even smaller since V 7.0. Great software when you're in me-and-my-fence mode, but how to find a few more warriors ...

I always had impression, small number is somehow intentional. There is "trademark" of "different software for power users, proud of their skills", which probably doesn't fiti nto expectation of majority of users, nowadays. I'd also believe Softimage always will find *enough* of people who want this "different".

Now the question is, what is 3d software. Does Rhino3d fits there - with their "well over 150K" user base , Vray connection, so on.. Also, all those 2d artists who started 3d in zBrush, as well as intention to raise zBrush into complete 3d app - based on completely different concept. We will see...

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Hirazi Blue » 08 Apr 2012, 22:01

Maximus wrote:Soft is a niche software
I don't think Softimage is a niche software, it just sells badly... ;)
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Bellsey
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Bellsey » 08 Apr 2012, 22:17

Nizar wrote: Now I'm curios to know softimage and maya market share before acquisition. A friend of mine states that maya/alias was in terrible financial situation and without AD for sure would not be saved from bankruptcy
Alias (or Alias Wavefront, as it was) flourished under SGI but then things started to go 'wrong' when SGI started to struggle with the emergence of PC based workstations and they became cash strapped, so as Hirazi says, SGI sold Alias to an investment group which was Accel-KKR and a Canadian Pension fund, but less than a year later Alias was sold to Autodesk.
Ownership may have been rocky, but Alias were doing very well, Maya had been out a while and was really penetrating into Films and Games.
Personally I've never been a subscriber to peoples views of Max being the games tool and first choice for devs (even though its still holds it own), and many forget that Alias's Power Animator and Softimage 3D were already being used extensively in Film and Games, before Max even came along. Max was always popular due to price and its heritage on PC, but with Maya and Softimage 3d/XSI also appearing on PC, Max was loosing alot of ground.

Autodesk buying Alias was a really smart move. Not only did it stem the the flow of loosing Max seats to Maya, it also got Autodesk back into the Games and Film industry. Not to mention gaining share into the automotive industry due to Alias's Studio Tools.

I can't discuss or mention specific numbers but I have heard Max being as quoted as being 'one of the most popular 3D packages' and I can kinda see why because it gets used in many different industries. Its not coincidence that it features in many of the Autodesk Suites offerings.

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Nizar
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Nizar » 09 Apr 2012, 01:10

Thanks a lot for the your post :)
Bellsey@ I think you are right. I start my interest in 3d before the SG workstation death, so it is a real obscure past for me.

Maximus@ Why you are so sure the Softimage market share rise up compared whit Avid time?
Modo and Lightwave seems more popular compared to Softimage (if we can assume for true the data reported in site you suggested) , but they adding many requested featured in every release compared to XSI (and no view cube at the horizon :) . Ok, softimage is really better, sure, and LW and modo new feature are sometime in XIS from many time or, in many cases, are only "sensationalism" addition, more smoke and less substance (LW can adding what they want, but the poor workflow don't cage... ), but in any case don't seem to me their popularity is a disadvantage in their development.
I don't think Softimage is a niche software, it just sells badly... ;)
=)) my metallica friend would said: "sad but true"
I always had impression, small number is somehow intentional. There is "trademark" of "different software for power users, proud of their skills", which probably doesn't fiti nto expectation of majority of users, nowadays. I'd also believe Softimage always will find *enough* of people who want this "different".
A voluntarily elitism? IMO AD will not afraid if softimage would sell like or more maya. I think poor market share (compared to maya) is involuntary.
Now the question is, what is 3d software. Does Rhino3d fits there - with their "well over 150K" user base , Vray connection, so on.. Also, all those 2d artists who started 3d in zBrush, as well as intention to raise zBrush into complete 3d app - based on completely different concept. We will see...
it is a no problem IMO. Every software capable to show a model in third dimension on you monitor is a 3d software (so Rhino is a 3d software like zbrush).

It is only a speculation (this is a forum, we are like old wives who talk about this and that and speculating on useless stuff :)
I'm not frequenting so many forums, usually I'm very busy for doing that, but yesterday I starting a bit of search, for pure curiosity, and find softimage presence is very poor everywhere (excluding si.community and XSIbase :D ) . On polycount no one mentioned SI 2013 release, idem o cgfeedback (only Kel Solaar , an ultra talented artist, mentioned it, but in a maya 2013 topic, and said SI 2013 release is one of the worse release in his opinion, no one seems interest about and commented this sentence), CGtalk others are sure XSI will be left apart like Toxik compositor (will see XSI like gift for maya users... seems a joke :) ) , and in others forum many are practical sure XSI is a death software, and who know it is not dead are, frequently, sure AD will "take" ICE code and sticky it to maya (code is a lego block and you can attack it everywhere you want :D

Look very strange, just know the little XSI penetration in the market (well, not so little), but seems strange because I don't know a single Softimage user who want leave it or are disappointed with the software in any way (excluding mental ray side). Opposite, I know too many people, a mass of users, who are really bothered by maya and 3dsm. The world is mad... :D

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Maximus
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Maximus » 09 Apr 2012, 01:44

No one has real datas, but i guess if softimage is still alive means it still sells and growing. AD wouldnt keep a dead product and wouldnt invest money on it.
I think people should stop saying Softimage will get killed or absorbed into maya, its simply stupid, unrealistic.
Softimage is alive because of ICE, if we didnt have ICE back then it would be dead for real. I dont think its gonna be dead anytime soon.
Would be nice if people stop sayin such stupid thing :)

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Hirazi Blue » 09 Apr 2012, 11:15

Maximus wrote:Softimage is alive because of ICE, if we didnt have ICE back then it would be dead for real.
It's true, but sadly it's not the whole picture IMHO. Softimage is, as you say, alive because of ICE, but it's still so much more than "just ICE". It being "just ICE", however, seems to be the main perception of Softimage by others and that might just as well spell trouble for the software in the long run. This might be considered yet another stupid/defeatist notion (although it isn't intended as such), but if you look at development over the last couple of years, I sometimes wonder, what will happen to Softimage once they run out of new things to add to ICE...
;)
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Nizar
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Nizar » 09 Apr 2012, 11:31

Maximus wrote:No one has real datas, but i guess if softimage is still alive means it still sells and growing. AD wouldnt keep a dead product and wouldnt invest money on it.
I think people should stop saying Softimage will get killed or absorbed into maya, its simply stupid, unrealistic.
Softimage is alive because of ICE, if we didnt have ICE back then it would be dead for real. I dont think its gonna be dead anytime soon.
Would be nice if people stop sayin such stupid thing :)
People say so because this is the perception given by autodesk and in general by softimage.

I really appreciate Bellsey and Luceric effort, I beat the time they dedicate in forums communication is a extra work not paid by AD, so they doing only for professionalism IMHO

But know a little about marketing and one, fundamental (and basic), marketing rule is: your marketing is good in proportion as public/potential customers comprises and like your message. If customers (or potential customers in this case), misunderstood your message (in this case: they think SI is death or is not a good investment because has an uncertain future), this mean your marketing fail, and is not a customers problem (never, in marketing case study, is a customer mistake/issue, but ever is a marketing manager error in set campaign or communication or quality perception etc.

So, cannot blame the potential users perception. I would like they proving softimage, doing some work and testing the workflow, the powerful modelling tools, the general stability and ICE power and versatility, but their curiosity and interest are not so stimulate...
It's true, but sadly it's not the whole picture IMHO. Softimage is, as you say, alive because of ICE, but it's still so much more than "just ICE".
totally agree, but Maximun statement say softimage is alive, and in AD plan, only for ICE, and not for the others potential tool and feature (all present in maya and 3dsm)

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Maximus
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Maximus » 09 Apr 2012, 11:41

Hirazi Blue wrote:
Maximus wrote:Softimage is alive because of ICE, if we didnt have ICE back then it would be dead for real.
It's true, but sadly it's not the whole picture IMHO. Softimage is, as you say, alive because of ICE, but it's still so much more than "just ICE". It being "just ICE", however, seems to be the main perception of Softimage by others and that might just as well spell trouble for the software in the long run. This might be considered yet another stupid/defeatist notion (although it isn't intended as such), but if you look at development over the last couple of years, I sometimes wonder, what will happen to Softimage once they run out of new things to add to ICE...
;)
Thats why i dont think its gonna die anytime soon, you wont run out of things to add to ICE because its a giant environment, everything will be replaced by ICE, they just need time and development will require time. Even if i'm disappointed by the latest release mainingly because of the rendering aspect, i cant criticize what Softimage devs are doing. If you compare v 7.0 to 2013 being objective there is a lot of improvement and development.

We still have the most stable and performant software compared to 3ds max and maya, people tend to forget the work they did under the hood on the sdk, which made possible arnold/vray/maxwell, all the gret plugins by users, just check rray.de

In terms of tools i dont feel the need to switch to max maya or modo at all. Softimage has everything. Of course i'd like updates in some areas, but honestly speaking of removing it from Autodesk products, killing it, or integrating ICE in maya is simply ridicolous.
It has a huge market in east for videogames, lots of "big" studios use it, its simply unrealistic they gonna kill it.

I dont think Soft will need that much features from maya or max (and if any its just a situational, user wish, feature). ICE to me can handle everything and will get updated constantly.
There are already a lot of custom deformers you can build with ICE that you simply cant do in max or maya without a TD writing them. Here they are for free, customizable with a low level knowledge of ICE. I've made myself more than 20 tools and i suck at ICE. Just copy/pasting stuff from other users and customizing them, then slapping them into the menù.

I'm the first to shoot at AD for lack of updates in the field i need for my work, but this doesnt mean that they arent doing an overall good job. Devs are brilliant, if you take into account what they did for example with CrowdFX. Ok not everyone will use that, but its a damn good work, now tell me what max or maya got at the same level of development in last years?
Nothing is comparable to the same level of development and new, in term of total new addition.

Now imagine next version will have tools like this, it could be everything, maybe next time you will have a HairFx module, or a CompositeFX, or anything really. Devs are brilliant people and as i said ICE is a beast and saved soft. It just sucks that it needs a lot of time so the perception is they are developing slow.
Still i think a little more could be done but meh i'm happy the software is still alive, its supported by some software houses which i didnt expect, like Next Limit, Chaos Group, Solidangle, Exocortex and many others.

There isnt a single signal they are gonna kill Softimage, its just people mindset that is dooming everything.

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Hirazi Blue » 09 Apr 2012, 11:49

Maximus wrote:There isnt a single signal they are gonna kill Softimage, its just people mindset that is dooming everything.
Just to make one thing perfectly clear: I am not claiming they are going to kill Softimage. I foresee trouble ahead, that's a different story. But I generally don't think, people who voice their fears about Softimage's future should made out to be the bad guys ("people mindset... dooming everything") like some people in the user base tend to do. A realistic discussion about Softimage's future has never been possible, but this has always been hindered by both sides of the argument IMHO.
;)
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Maximus
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Re: Software diffusion

Post by Maximus » 09 Apr 2012, 12:02

Hirazi Blue wrote:
Maximus wrote:There isnt a single signal they are gonna kill Softimage, its just people mindset that is dooming everything.
Just to make one thing perfectly clear: I am not claiming they are going to kill Softimage. I foresee trouble ahead, that's a different story. But I generally don't think, people who voice their fears about Softimage's future should made out to be the bad guys ("people mindset... dooming everything") like some people in the user base tend to do. A realistic discussion about Softimage's future has never been possible, but this has always been hindered by both sides of the argument IMHO.
;)
Yes, i am not saying you are, but there has been other people sayin that they gonna kill Softimage, that they will strip ICE and slap into Maya (which is simply technically impossible), and other things like this. I'm not sayin who voice their fears is a bad guy, i voice my disappointment like everyone else, i just say that people should be objective when comparing softwares or development cycles. If its not "people mindset" what is it then?
I'm not offending anyone, apologize if i did, but honestly some comparisons that were made lately for example with Modo was a bit not objective.
I wouldnt dare to compare Soft with Modo for example, they are totally on another level, Modo is too far behind for being able to be compared to Soft, so when i read certain things even from Softimage users i'm a bit clueless on how they pull out those statements.
Its more like they dont know what Softimage can do, but they look at the other software developments and new tools, without knowing your software that deep before going out and take a look at other packages.

Been reading about Modo render vs Mental ray for example, with most people saying Modo renderer is better than Mental ray (which is not). From here a whole discussion about how Modo is better than Soft, or how it got more updates so Softimage will die soon will start. I'm just pulling out examples. Not want to start a 3d war thread :)

Anyway its entertaining to see what other users think, i just think Soft is more than alive even if i'd like a more solid update in Rendering part, and other things. It will come, and if not i'll look to alternatives, its better than having the software discontinued in my opinion. Id just like people to be a little more objective which sometimes they are not.
But i respect every opinion from everyone, so apologize again if i sounded rude.

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