the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

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Bellsey
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Bellsey » 24 Apr 2012, 00:25

Clappy wrote: 2) No transparency - Autodesk could quell this suspicion quite easily by openly discussing the roadmap for Softimages future like they have done with 3DS Max and XBR, or project Skyline and Maya. Instead, they default to "we can't legally discuss our plans". So why than is the Max team allowed? They are careful not to discuss "features", but they are completely open about their plans in broad areas. So clearly, ADSK is allowed to discuss the roadmap for a product, so long as they operate within some legal boundaries. Yet another reason to be frustrated.
Ok, my take on this is still the same as I have always said, we can't discuss product roadmaps. And though it appears that Max and Maya have, in fact they haven't. There are no specifics around features, workflows, when they will appear and also release dates.
XBR was/is basically an intention, an initiative, but there's nothing specific and guaranteed about when things will be done, and if they will be done, apart from the fact they were thinking of doing something. So everything is all very loose and very light on details , but even then they tread a fine line and there's many disclaimers in place.

I know it sounds easy to say Max does it, so why don't the others, but it's a tricky balancing act. We've all seen how easy, even with a simple 'please dont read too much into it', people inevitably do. So maybe the other teams are perhaps abit cautious on how things might be read? As for why Max do it, I don't know. It's not that they're 'allowed' to do it, and others aren't, maybe they feel they have to?. I basically follow the product guys on this, if they feel the need to be more open on the products I specialise in, then I follow their lead.

Regarding Skyline specifically, that's an internal project, and that's all it is right now. It's not a product and it could even change dramatically before it maybe appears on the market.

As for Maya's Node Editor, well it's early days and it's a long way before it becomes ICE, if it becomes ICE. It doesn't even have quite the same functionality as Maya's Hypershade & Hypergraph yet, so I wonder if those areas might be a good place to start first. At present I see it as a better Connection Editor.
And the whole thing about Softimage devs working on it, well Chinny did explain all that on the list, but if you're looking at incorporating a node-based workflow, which package would you look at? :)

Clappy
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Clappy » 24 Apr 2012, 01:15

Thanks for the reply Graham. I think where we are split is on the value of what the XBR pr does.

What the XBR webinars and openness demonstrated to Max users was "Hey, don't worry, Max is not going anywhere, we are fully committed to its development, we can't say what the features will be, but here is a taste of what you can expect." Remember, even Max users were worried about ADSK merging all the apps into one package. But now they know, Max is not going anywhere.

As for which node based product I would choose today, Maya or Softimage? Of course Softimage, if that were my only concern. What concerns me more however, is which of the two products is a better long term investment. Totally different answer. And that is based on the perception that ADSK is more committed to Maya and whatever advantages Softimage currently has in some areas are only temporary. Again, these perceptions, right or wrong, are based on what I see.

Anyhow, I am just trying to offer a point of view from someone new(ish) to Softimage and what concerns I would have as a prospective buyer.

Cheers,
Matt

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gustavoeb
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by gustavoeb » 24 Apr 2012, 03:05

I always wanted to comment on the XBR thing... It really makes most arguments about openess empty. They have showed a lot of stuff like User Interface mockups, where they are commiting theyre resourcers, what is theyre vision of the future. Maybe that is not very specific but it is really good at calming people down and reassuring stuff is being taken care of. The Uservoice things also "looks" great.
But we do really read too much into stuff, and there is probably some level of disincouragement in any initiatives of this sort due to that.

OT: XSIBase should try getting an interview with Chung-Pong... just a random thought :D
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bottleofram
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by bottleofram » 24 Apr 2012, 05:53

Bellsey wrote:well Chinny did explain all that on the list
I did not see any explanation from Chinny. Could you possibly provide a link or a quote?
Bellsey wrote:if you're looking at incorporating a node-based workflow, which package would you look at? :)
This is an interesting question, though. I would spin it around a little to get closer to the problem. If you're looking to try and develop a more Houdini-esque node-based data manipulation/creation system, which package would you develop it for? I think this is what it all comes down to. IF we see mayas node editor grow more and more in that direction, it is a clear sign that AD finally got sick of loosing bits and peaces of VFX market (which was and will stay mayas ground) every year in favor of Houdini.

The thing with that is, it will take many years for maya to get there so immediate future of softimage is safe. In long term, however, this is definitely gonna be the sickest joke AD has played on SI users, no competition. That is, of course, if Softimage doesnt come up with another killer feature (what are the chances?) that will advertise itself by itself (for AD seems incapable of it).

Speculation, but what did you expect? Last couple of posts said it all. Theres no reason why there cant be at least some vague information about what are the plans for SI.

And just like Clappy, i was amazed what joy it is to work with soft - something i could never dream of experiencing with maya. As i said, ICE is only one feature that makes Soft excellent. I didn't even start using ICE until the last couple of months.

It will be a big defeat for me, personally, if Soft gets lost and eaten somewhere down the road...

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gaboraa
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by gaboraa » 24 Apr 2012, 09:50

Maya is the future then? I really don't want to use that crappy software but it seems Autodesk won't give most of us another choice. If ICE like environment will be developed for Maya, all of us are supposed to use Maya as our primary 3d software from now on because, on the ICE side, we won't receive love from Autodesk.

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Hirazi Blue » 24 Apr 2012, 11:12

Clappy wrote:1) Pessimism - the doom and gloom cloud that hangs over the two main Softimage sites does not encourage potential new users to commit to a product when their future or current employ-ability may be at stake.
@Clappy - The Softimage related communities often seem quite pessimistic, it's true. But that's only part of the story, I guess. We're all quite passionate about Softimage and when you combine that passion with a lot of bad PR moments (stuff that might not even have been so bad, but was badly communicated to the user base) over the years, a somewhat pessimistic/cynical tone can't be helped I'm afraid. What newcomers/outsiders tend to overlook, however, is that the "doom and gloom" only makes up a small part of the user activity on forums. Threads like this one are perhaps more high-profile, but they tend to distort the focus away from a very active and helpful user base...
;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

brudney
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by brudney » 24 Apr 2012, 11:14

Clappy wrote:Thanks for the reply Graham. I think where we are split is on the value of what the XBR pr does.

What the XBR webinars and openness demonstrated to Max users was "Hey, don't worry, Max is not going anywhere, we are fully committed to its development, we can't say what the features will be, but here is a taste of what you can expect." Remember, even Max users were worried about ADSK merging all the apps into one package. But now they know, Max is not going anywhere.

As for which node based product I would choose today, Maya or Softimage? Of course Softimage, if that were my only concern. What concerns me more however, is which of the two products is a better long term investment. Totally different answer. And that is based on the perception that ADSK is more committed to Maya and whatever advantages Softimage currently has in some areas are only temporary. Again, these perceptions, right or wrong, are based on what I see.

Anyhow, I am just trying to offer a point of view from someone new(ish) to Softimage and what concerns I would have as a prospective buyer.

Cheers,
Matt

Quoted for total and absolute agreement :]

Bellsey
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Bellsey » 24 Apr 2012, 12:03

@clappy, No I agree with you. XBR has done a good job for informing Max users. I do wish that Autodesk would do more in this area with some of its other products, but that's not my call.

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Nizar
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Nizar » 24 Apr 2012, 16:51

I'm start to thinking seriously AD marketing people read these pages and doing everything to get our day wrong:

http://area.autodesk.com/togetheratlast

"The Ultimate Dynamic Duo"? :| =))

And:
Since the acquisition of Alias, people have wondered where the relationship between Maya and 3ds Max is heading.

Would they fight to the death?

Or… Would they unite in one of the most powerful software packages the 3D world has ever seen?
Why not a similar page for Sotimage? and Why not "The ultimate dynamic TRIO"?

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gustavoeb
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by gustavoeb » 24 Apr 2012, 16:56

lol

"Like Mario and Luigi, Woody and Buzz, or Batman and Robin, Maya and 3ds Max are together at last." =)) (laughing scarcastically)
mmmmmmkay
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Nizar
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Nizar » 24 Apr 2012, 17:14

gustavoeb wrote:lol

"Like Mario and Luigi, Woody and Buzz, or Batman and Robin, Maya and 3ds Max are together at last." =)) (laughing scarcastically)
mmmmmmkay
=)) =))
Maxio and Luaya? "Luaya" don't sound so well... I think they must cage the name, something that can work together better :D

foe me have 3dsm and maya (and softimage), has not so much sense... I think is different for a big studio... also, the image of the package (with the applications logo) remember me some super market ice cream discount package...

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Hirazi Blue » 24 Apr 2012, 17:26

Well the Germans already have a duo that seems fitting:
Max & Moritz (based on a classic story by Wilhelm Busch)

PS They come to a quite horrific end, BTW. ;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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bottleofram
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by bottleofram » 24 Apr 2012, 17:30

If you click "learn more" it will lead you to a nice bullet point page that uses language meant for studio executives. The suits, if you will. Trying to sell them two identical products is hard enough. Don't you think three would be over-optimistic?

Softimage should be happy its even invited to that party, considering how AD has no idea what is its role in this whole product bundling scheme...
Last edited by bottleofram on 25 Apr 2012, 07:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Nizar
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Nizar » 24 Apr 2012, 18:03

Hirazi Blue wrote:Well the Germans already have a duo that seems fitting:
Max & Moritz (based on a classic story by Wilhelm Busch)

PS They come to a quite horrific end, BTW. ;)
Propose it to AD, and you will be hire soon in marketing department :)
Softimage should be happy its even invited to that party, considering how AD has no idea what is its role in this whole product bundling scheme...
For my poor mind AD marketing is pretty obscure, but if softimage now is more strong than ever, they doing a good job (repeat, don't understood how)

Bellsey
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Bellsey » 24 Apr 2012, 18:05

Frankly, I've given trying to work out how our marketing people think. lol x_x

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by ShaderOp » 24 Apr 2012, 19:45

bottleofram wrote:If you click "learn more" it will lead you to a nice bullet point page that uses language meant for studio executives. The suits, if you will.
Suites for suits. Kind of poetic, ain't it? :)

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