How rendering should be

General discussion about 3D DCC and other topics
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Maximus
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Maximus » 26 Aug 2012, 20:51

Kzin wrote:
Maximus wrote: I am always quite amused on how many people underestimate Modo or Cinema 4D, main because of their lazyness to try them out.
cinema is not ready for high end work. as soon as you start to work with alot of data, textures are geometry, cinema is slow down alot. that slow that you switch back to max, maya or xsi. alot of deformer? forget the speed, its unusable not because it will be slow, also the ram usage is exploding. but cinema is not done for these kind of work. their customers dont need this, so its good placed on the market.
I dont know where people draw the line between work and high end work, so might as well make me an example, because from studio i know, works i see cinema 4d is more than capable to cover a gigantic variety of jobs from simple to advanced.
Of course you wont see cinema 4d being used to rig King Kong at Weta digital. You know there are bilions of other markets and jobs other than that.

You know this looks to me the same topic there was time ago, "Vray is only for archviz", yeah go check it out now :)

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Hirazi Blue » 26 Aug 2012, 20:57

Ramon wrote:this policy of development of AD just help people migrate to other software
Ah, the mythical mass migration away from Autodesk... The sad truth is that it will never happen! Users tend to be fiercely loyal towards the product they are familiar with and use in production. Not out of some kind of brand loyalty, but because they need this product to get the job done! In my experience, all the bitching and moaning on the different forums hardly ever seems to amount to many actually taking the plunge to adopt new software. Autodesk really hasn’t got anything to worry about in that respect. And should a product itself be killed, for instance if Autodesk eventually decides to kill Softimage (read it again: ”if”, not “when”!!!!) I am pretty certain, most Softimage users would take Autodesk up on a nice side-grade offer and would start to use Maya or Max, instead of looking elsewhere. They'd bitch and moan about it for a while, but they'd start using it nonetheless...
Life is good for Mr. and Mrs. Autodesk... ;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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Nizar
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Nizar » 26 Aug 2012, 23:35

Hirazi Blue wrote:
Ramon wrote:this policy of development of AD just help people migrate to other software
Ah, the mythical mass migration away from Autodesk... The sad truth is that it will never happen! Users tend to be fiercely loyal towards the product they are familiar with and use in production. Not out of some kind of brand loyalty, but because they need this product to get the job done! In my experience, all the bitching and moaning on the different forums hardly ever seems to amount to many actually taking the plunge to adopt new software. Autodesk really hasn’t got anything to worry about in that respect. And should a product itself be killed, for instance if Autodesk eventually decides to kill Softimage (read it again: ”if”, not “when”!!!!) I am pretty certain, most Softimage users would take Autodesk up on a nice side-grade offer and would start to use Maya or Max, instead of looking elsewhere. They'd bitch and moan about it for a while, but they'd start using it nonetheless...
Life is good for Mr. and Mrs. Autodesk... ;)
I'm not so sure about. If Cinema or what else will show some great feature/capability making easer our life why don't try?
Learn an application is a big effort in terms of study, time and money, if a freelance (because who want work on the industry usually pick up maya or 3dsm wagon) will see all his effort wasted by AD choice, IMHO, why doing again some error? So will not waste its effort on AD side. With a bit of struggle every software out there can doing the job (more fast or more slow), so if I must learn another application I will prefer some no AD product.

Kzin
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Kzin » 27 Aug 2012, 00:59

Maximus wrote:
Kzin wrote:
Maximus wrote: I am always quite amused on how many people underestimate Modo or Cinema 4D, main because of their lazyness to try them out.
cinema is not ready for high end work. as soon as you start to work with alot of data, textures are geometry, cinema is slow down alot. that slow that you switch back to max, maya or xsi. alot of deformer? forget the speed, its unusable not because it will be slow, also the ram usage is exploding. but cinema is not done for these kind of work. their customers dont need this, so its good placed on the market.
I dont know where people draw the line between work and high end work, so might as well make me an example, because from studio i know, works i see cinema 4d is more than capable to cover a gigantic variety of jobs from simple to advanced.
Of course you wont see cinema 4d being used to rig King Kong at Weta digital. You know there are bilions of other markets and jobs other than that.

You know this looks to me the same topic there was time ago, "Vray is only for archviz", yeah go check it out now :)
it comes from my own experience (i know cinema since 1999). try it by yourself and you will see whats happen if you have to render alot of highres maps at the same time. or use alot of deformers, cinema is not responding. you have to disable all the deformers to make the whole thing workable again (editor speed and display is the problem). highres geo is also a big problem.

i did not wrote its not good. its good for what its done and where it is placed on the market. but dont think its a competitor for max, xsi or maya. and i dont think maxon is going in this direction. it works great on their current market. the developement of the last ten years shows that they dont aim high end 3d market at all, but thats ok.

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Maximus
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Maximus » 30 Aug 2012, 18:09

https://vimeo.com/47478043#at=0

https://www.caustic.com/gallery_movies_ ... h2012_Maya

https://vimeo.com/47960302

now how many of you would love a viewport like this? read everything, from shave&haircut to carpaing and paint effects..
we have the HQV =))

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Nizar
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Nizar » 30 Aug 2012, 22:31

I don't like HQV (cycles and modo (without disturbing GPU and with a preview very close to final render) are many steps forward IMO), but HQV is an half baked feature. I don't think, using the integrated mental ray, they can match the speed showed in this Caustic video, but can improve the quality in next release (High "Quality" Viewport is not a well guessed name)

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nixx
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by nixx » 30 Aug 2012, 23:50

Hirazi Blue wrote:
Ramon wrote:this policy of development of AD just help people migrate to other software
Ah, the mythical mass migration away from Autodesk... The sad truth is that it will never happen! Users tend to be fiercely loyal towards the product they are familiar with and use in production. Not out of some kind of brand loyalty, but because they need this product to get the job done! In my experience, all the bitching and moaning on the different forums hardly ever seems to amount to many actually taking the plunge to adopt new software. Autodesk really hasn’t got anything to worry about in that respect. And should a product itself be killed, for instance if Autodesk eventually decides to kill Softimage (read it again: ”if”, not “when”!!!!) I am pretty certain, most Softimage users would take Autodesk up on a nice side-grade offer and would start to use Maya or Max, instead of looking elsewhere. They'd bitch and moan about it for a while, but they'd start using it nonetheless...
Life is good for Mr. and Mrs. Autodesk... ;)
But it has happened before, hasn't it ? Remember back when people fled from the Lightwave camp en-mass to come over to the Softimage side ? People were really fed up with NewTek back then, and that, combined with the "3democracy" pricing, as well as the fact that XSI was the easiest-to-adapt-to package for an ex-Lightwaver, led to many people leaving and never looking back.

With many (most ?) SI users being familiar with the ICE logic, I can see the same thing happening with SI -> Houdini (again, the recent massive price cut would help). I 'm not saying it will happen, I 'm just saying it's possible.

nick
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Maximus
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Maximus » 31 Aug 2012, 00:17

Nizar wrote:I don't like HQV (cycles and modo (without disturbing GPU and with a preview very close to final render) are many steps forward IMO), but HQV is an half baked feature. I don't think, using the integrated mental ray, they can match the speed showed in this Caustic video, but can improve the quality in next release (High "Quality" Viewport is not a well guessed name)
Actually that tech in the video is a raytracing preview fully running in viewport and reading mental ray materials.
What is annoying is that you never see stuff like this coming from AD. And i guess that video is a one-man army project. Quite..impressive

luceric
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by luceric » 31 Aug 2012, 03:01

I don't think this is a one-man-army project.. it's based on Brazil R/S and PowerVR tech, and the owner is a pretty big company.

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Hirazi Blue
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Hirazi Blue » 31 Aug 2012, 11:28

nixx wrote: I 'm not saying it will happen, I 'm just saying it's possible.
I fully agree, that it is possible! I just don't think that it's very likely. I personally even have my doubts about the "mass" migration to Houdini. To some this would no doubt be a logical step, but most users will still look more for a "generalist application" to replace Softimage, if it were to come to that, I guess, while I would still rate Houdini as more of a "specialist application".

And historically you're right with the Lightwave exodus to XSI, but I'm afraid the "landscape" back then cannot really be compared to the "landscape" now. And the introduction of the famous 3Democracy pricing of the XSI Foundation version obviously was a tempting lure that was extremely hard to resist.

And SideFX will have to bring prices (especially those of the "Annual Upgrade Plan") down quite a bit to truly pull off a new "3Democracy" on Autodesk, I'm afraid.
:-?
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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Maximus
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Maximus » 31 Aug 2012, 13:06

People complained about Houdini prices since quite a bit, and SideFx cut down the price by 50%.
Now compared to Softimage there is a 1k difference in annual upgrade cost, which is quite worth the software if you refers to ICE. Not to count the abysmal difference in the company behind the software.

SideFX is way more serious than AD. they have their product which they develop and still care of, cannot say the same about AD. I think in a really short period a lot of people will take into consideration Houdini, beside you can skip the annual upgrade (which in any case is free for the first year, hello AD) i am not sure what happens if you want to upgrade after you skipped one year, but i dont think you would pay half the price of the whole software to get back on subscription like AD does.

When making comparison should also take into account the amount of free updates and bugfixes they release daily. Many updates you wont even pay for.
Softimage became a specialist application because they only develops ICE, so why not take into consideration Houdini? And now that the price is more friendly...well, a collegue of mine already bought it to be honest. And i wont be surprised if other people will just start using it.

The thing is really simple, if AD doesnt start working for good on their softwares, its gonna go worse and worse. But as usual, untill you are sick you wont heal yourself, prevention is better than curing. And AD fucked up way bad lately and they seem to not care. I cant wait to be proven wrong with the releases, but i already know its not gonna happen :)

We are at a point where there are no excuses for Autodesk anymore, no one forced AD to buy 10000 softwares if they cant keep up with the development and then they complain about other software houses that just have one to take care of.

There are some evident things that are disappointing, there are some bugs and things that single users fix by themselves or implement into those softwares which is insulting that AD didnt take care of. This is just a sign of people not doing their job, and we users are paying money, also they keep increasing prices. Seriously? Its a damn shame and soon or later AD will pay the disaster they created fully.


@luceric - even if its not an one-man army its still depressing that nothing that caliber came out of Autodesk, considering how big AD is, and the tech AD has. So nothing really changes much. AD is unable to develop and to work. There isnt a single year when AD surprises you with a feature or something stunning new. Pathetic.

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Nizar
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Nizar » 31 Aug 2012, 15:07

Your expectation is, for sure, partial true, actually in CAD area AD is technological behind every Dassault packages, seems they suffer a losses market share (and money haemorrhage) in this field.

AD lost pieces every day, so can deciding to sell Softimage again? (Dassault, IMHO the best home for softimage).

luceric
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by luceric » 31 Aug 2012, 16:16

nixx wrote:But it has happened before, hasn't it ? Remember back when people fled from the Lightwave camp en-mass to come over to the Softimage side ? People were really fed up with NewTek back then, and that, combined with the "3democracy" pricing, as well as the fact that XSI was the easiest-to-adapt-to package for an ex-Lightwaver, led to many people leaving and never looking back.
as far as I know, a "mass exodus" to XSI has never happened. We all know people who have moved from Lightwave to XSI.. but that number is in the dozens. There was a mass exodus from Softimage to Maya earlier in the century, however.. those things can happen around technology change.

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Mathaeus
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by Mathaeus » 31 Aug 2012, 23:46

Ramon wrote: But it has happened before, hasn't it ? Remember back when people fled from the Lightwave camp en-mass to come over to the Softimage side ? People were really fed up with NewTek back then, and that, combined with the "3democracy" pricing, as well as the fact that XSI was the easiest-to-adapt-to package for an ex-Lightwaver, led to many people leaving and never looking back.
Well according to people I know in place where I'm live, actually no one "switched" from Lightwave to XSI. Many of them tried, but they didn't have a time or willing force to learn a completely new 3d app. Anyway there is area of freelancers, small shops, occasional users, employed people who still want 3d app for small gigs here and there.... where LW and Cinema 4d are tradition, and now Modo become a player. And no one of three AD apps. OK a few architects have the oldest possible Max and newer possible V-Ray . Love falls when it becomes to licensing schemes. Me to, I love Softimage and Max, but not enough to pay the offense called AD subscription ( it's NOT nearly the same as AVID subscription, when it comes to final price ). How wide is that area, really hard to say.

Imho only way to *really* put a new 3d app on the road, it's to find a job to utilize it, at least partially. Old XSI Foundation had a lot of advantages against any 3d app of this time, for any user. Fast subdivs, fast fCurve editor, ability to bake anything. Reliable text tool too. In these times, try to launch animation editor in Max with more than twenty fCurves, then wait some time for crash. Baking with Mental Ray and Maya, almost impossible.

Today I really don't see *any* advantage of Houdini in everyday life. I'd believe cheap version have sense only for learning, for people who want to be masters in big facilities, one day. If there is some optimist who want to be competitive with it in everyday task of small shop, who cares. It even can't be used "partially". On another side. Blender's simulation modules, each developed in it's own way, could be a nightmare for huge pipelines, but for small tasks, they just calling to be used. And simulation in Blender is easy to learn, exactly because every module offers all available options, in few hours you know would you use Blender or not.

An now that "when technology changes". That cloud computing thing, well that's total change, against habits, current technology, anything. By any logic, new era belongs to 3d app written to live on new technology, not to three old AD monsters. Let's say for archiviz, product shots or like, my bet is for some power variance of Google Sketchup. They already have more than enough of users, applied technology like V-Ray for Sketchup, rich owner. We will see, when "mother of all technology battles" :) begin.

By the way, moving SI team to Maya, actually means "approval" of SI technology, ICE and so. Otherwise Maya and Max people would do anything, trying to marginalize SI and everything related to SI. Just like they were all the time. Now SI is a player, well in some strange way...

gfxman
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by gfxman » 01 Sep 2012, 00:45

Can't remember, what was the best stunning xsi 2013 feature? :D

luceric
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Re: How rendering should be

Post by luceric » 01 Sep 2012, 14:41

Autodesk actually does have interactive GPU/Raytracing render, but it's in Autodesk Showcase. You can do fun interactive stuff like drag the shows to position lights and all of that stuff. Maya's viewport 2.0 and Max's Nitrous viewport shares technology with showcase, but not the raytracing.

you're not going to see any impressive ray tracing development in M&E, because they don't do that. There are tons of renderers, the best thing to do would be to focus on the realtime viewports, API and kick mental ray off the curb. The rendering stuff at Autodesk is RapidRT and Showcase. Now was anything impressive last year... that depends on your area of interest I guess. I was impress by GPU cache demo with the city of venice in Maya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n6s-w63IRc, the Direcx11 viewport, the mudbox gigatexel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exnEDYKqNyM The ICE crowd stuff for sure is technically interesting, since it's all basicly open source compounds in ICE, so it's basically built with what's already in ice, except the gpu instancing stuff

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