Fabric Q&A

[FabricPaul]

As you can imagine, we get asked to do the same for lots of applications. If we don't have Fabric customers telling us they need it, it requires a lot of evidence for us to do it. Speculative development without a hard use case gets expensive really quickly, and it means not doing something else that might be really valuable. As I've stated elsewhere, we've been stung by "If it had X I would totally buy it", followed by "X is awesome, we just need Y" etc etc.

As I see things right now - lots of Softimage artists are looking to Modo, which is great. However, those guys can't use Fabric - our customers are TDs and R&D guys building tools for artists. Those guys aren't asking us for this. As we move to FE2.0, more and more becomes possible for the less technical artists out there - at that point I can see a viable argument for pushing Fabric to Modo.

The other way it happens sooner is if we have a customer using Modo and they want to move their Maya/Softimage Fabric tools into Modo as well - then we have a hard use case for it, and a customer telling us that it's required. That's not happening right now.

Finally, Modo could take the Splice API and work with us to do it. However, I expect they will need the same business justifications as us - development is expensive, and I'm sure they have tons of things going on already!

Last point: You already own Softimage and you can get Fabric for free. It seems like a reasonable start point to kick it around and follow the tutorials.

[Eugen]

I see, thanks, and you don't have to convince me of your workload or budgetarian restrictions.
This is about options, and an 'escape plan' from the XSI ship, which has just hit the iceberg.
Modo & FE: egg and chicken, I know.

I was in the middle of developing modeling tools for XSI (curves, better extrusions...), but my motivation has just taken a lethal stab, as you can imagine. It just doesn't make much sense anymore.
Even with Splice there would be the same SDK restrictions with cluster properties (UVs, normals), and Nurbs related bugs that never got fixed. It was tiring anyway, but now I'm fed up for good.

Modo looks like a fantastic great modeling app, even better than XSI maybe, except for the missing proceduralism. As they say, it's good for so much more.
Brad Peebler mentioned a webinar he is going to hold shortly to tell people what Modo is and what not. Looking forward...
It hasn't reached maturity yet by far, but it has a very different SDK than XSI of course, and I might think that some of XSI's limitations are non-existent there. E.g. primitives come with automatic UVs, unlike XSI's.


PS I already downloaded FE recently, and planned to install it and mess with it a bit to get a grip, but I want (have) to migrate to another app eventually, and I have to rule out Maya or Houdini for various reasons.

[laluneverte]

I see, thanks, and you don't have to convince me of your workload or budgetarian restrictions.
Even with Splice there would be the same SDK restrictions with cluster properties (UVs, normals), and Nurbs related bugs that never got fixed. It was tiring anyway, but now I'm fed up for good.

Hey Eugen, can you elaborate why that's the case? With Splice you don't develop against the native DCCs geometry systems, so I don't understand how that's an issue. You actually are only limited by the output types a DCC gives you (converting to meshes, curves etc), but within Splice you can do whatever you want. What's the issue you are experiencing?

Best,

Helge

[Eugen]

Hi Helge! =)

As I said, I didn't try FE yet, but it's an operator atop the 'classic' SDK, right?
How would you do a generator op with automatic UVs (without clicking some 'generate UVs' button), for example? Clusters are not accessible from inside an operator, only from commands.
Even Eric had to use a workaround (I asked him, he used a workaround with some a global pointer in C++ to his UV data object) for polygonizer UVs back then (now it's ICE based, and ICE UVs are no problemany more).
But ICE does not support Nurbs well (cannot write), but this is exactly where I'm interested in, because XSI lacks here, and I like and need proper curves and extrusions. So, I have to use the classic SDK.
Also, via SDK, adding subcurves in an operator has the bug that all added subcurves are not selectable at first, until you freeze. (or use a hacky and unreliable workaround with an additional idle factory curve operator - I used 'optimize').
I asked literally for years to get that fixed in the beta, but was ignored. Thanks again, AD.
(JScript, btw., but the problem persists in C++,I tried)

Splice will have the same problems I'd expect, because it's SDK based.

[laluneverte]

Yes, you are right. But that's a worry you won't have to deal with. This is our service. So if something doesn't work the way you'd expect it to, you can file an issue to us. With Splice you aren't developing for a specific DCC anymore however, and I can assure you that the issues mentioned don't occur in maya, for example. The idea of splice is that you can develop once, and our service it to provide support for additional DCCs.

It doesn't stop there, though. We provide source code for all of the splice integrations, so if we don't deliver a required feature in time (based on schedule or priorities), you can still perform that change yourself. So we are not locking you out.

DCC bugs are DCC bugs, of course. But with the community knowledge and the fact that these kinds of things only have to be solved once, things can get a lot simpler.

Let me know if this makes sense.

[Eugen]

Given the XSI devs would listen to you and fix that SDK stuff (I don't believe the cluster issues will ever be tackled now), it's too late - XSI is going under. Not tomorrow, but soon enough. I have to and will use it for a transitional period, of course.

After that, given I'd even had written some FE tools - where to migrate? That's why I asked Paul in the first place about the Modo integration.

As I said, Modo looks good. I have no proof yet, but what I see in the videos.
In case you did not watch that 'mesh fusion' thing: http://vimeo.com/85143354
If you ask me - that's beyond what XSI was capable of regarding modeling.

What's your opinion about Modo, btw.? Besides deelopment resources ans practicalities, would you not say that this looks definitely cool?

Add FE's proceduralism to that already awesome toolset, and we're in modeling heaven...
And let's see what 801 brings. They are pushing for character anim even more, afaik - perfect playground for FE, too, I'd say.

Besides, many fellow Softies seem to be interested in going down there, too.


Houdini's surely makes a whole lot of sense in studio environments, and for you guys it's only logical to make that move. For me (freelancer), it's overkill.

XSI was the perfect compromise (in a positive sense) between artist friendlyness and power. Modo might become a worthy successor... I want to believe at least.

[FabricPaul]

All I'm saying is that when the situation shifts from 'people are interested in Modo' to 'people are moving to Modo' it is a lot simpler for us to invest resources in Splicing Fabric to it.

Modo is definitely cool and I hope to see it continue to succeed. Brad and I chat now from time to time and I expect this conversation will come up again.

[Eugen]

That's cool for now. Happy to hear you're not slamming any doors here.

Let's wait until the dust settles and see how many people will actually transition to Modo for real.
I for my part will definitely give it a try, and also play with FE. (Gotta give my brain cells a kick in the * to wake them up again... )
Thanks and see you soon!

[Bullit]

Yeah, i am a Icer but not a coder i am very interested in F.E 2.0 . I am not obviously expecting an ICE since it will be even a mistake to copy ICE and not turning on something better and more simplified. I think ICE has too many nodes that from a coherent language vp makes things too much complicated.

[sonictk]

My mind just exploded. And my jaw was open the whole way while I was following the workshop.

I'm completely sold. I'm going to try and port my JScript IK/FK solver that I got from a tutorial a few weeks ago after I finish these workshops. If I manage to do that...I think I might just die from excitement.

(Sorry, this post isn't very useful, but I haven't been this excited about tech stuff since I first got my Dreamcast.)

EDIT: Are there any video workshops on the SceneGraph other than what has been already outlined in the html docs? Sorry, just looking around in case this has already been answered...and I just started looking at some of the demos.

[FabricPaul]

hey sorry I didn't reply - I didn't see the edit.

I recommend that you stick with Splice for now. We are making some changes that will affect the standalone (and make it easier to work with it). There's a very good new release coming in a week or two that will make it a lot of fun to be familiar with Splice. Hope to show some videos next week...