Additional si licenses

General discussion about 3D DCC and other topics
pluMmet
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pluMmet » 09 Apr 2014, 14:33

pluMmet wrote:Either you are about to piss me off because you out [edited out by HB] or I have no understanding of how to use that system.

I guess that should have read:

Either you are about to piss me off because you are trivializing a valid concern or I have no understanding of how to use that system.

Sorry HB it just gets to be such a bother not having concens addressed because no one will acknowledge them as such which is such a low way of handeling stuff.

Moderator edit: I've sent you a private message, but you haven't read it yet... ;) - HB

pluMmet
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pluMmet » 09 Apr 2014, 15:05

Google "Houdini animation chops"

I can get a speaker to reviberate using audio very well with chops

Google "Houdini charater animation chops"

*crickets

pcd
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pcd » 09 Apr 2014, 17:41

pluMmet wrote:
pcd wrote:
pluMmet wrote:
Are we back to Full Retard or am I missing something?
You're missing more then you can imagine. Take a look at the screen bellow to see how many functions do you have(and this is just one function out of how many on the menu??). In the sample i attached/created two motions to a cube. Look only at the timing options i have!!! The problem is that the NLA editor in Houdini does not look like that in XSI. But this does not mean that it's not there! And boy what it does, you can only dream of such functions in Maya or other programs, really!!! I don't know how the hell i missed this program so far. Take a look at how it combines the motion clips, and at the fact that i can add a new node to manipulate the combined result! I can also have access to the clips fcurves both before and after the clips combination. And i can go low level(ICE like) and create a tool like i want to manipulate the clips in certain ways. This is mind blowing to be honest, and i just scratched the surface. So, go ahead and learn a bit about what you want to use before bashing it. It might not be as visual appealing as animation mixer, but it's has so much more functionality that i already switched to Houdini.....

Either you are about to piss me off because you out [edited out by HB] or I have no understanding of how to use that system.

The reason I even googled it to begin with is I need to see if Houdini meets my needs before deciding to spend any money of this magnitude.

If you are gong to sit there and tell me that the ease of having Blocks in a Motion Mixer are too simple a mechanism then you are disterbed.

Or on the other hand if google was a poor way for me to see how 'great' this system you are talking about is then fine... where is a video demo I can see on how I can assign and mix blocks.

All I see in that image is a curve editor and the ability to use nodes to connect blocks. That appears to mean the instead of being able to slide a block around in a proper mixer I have to be changing values around in each little node.


Am I missing something wonderfull or are You a Full Retard?

Moderator edit: the text I edited out could be seen as an insult to someone not even active in this thread... - HB

Do your own search and try to be polite, because if i call you a retard, it's not the way to talk. I answered to your false statements about Houdini.So please avoid me.
Last edited by pcd on 09 Apr 2014, 18:16, edited 1 time in total.

pcd
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pcd » 09 Apr 2014, 17:50

grendizer wrote:Thanks PCD that's very interesting. The A.M. is one of the best tool in XSI I.M.O. so if it's possible to work in the same way in Houdini, that's good news!
Are there plans to improve the GUI for this?

Actually this is exactly what i think off before i started to work with it. But the catch is, that it is like this with a purpose. So please be careful: in the picture you see two animation clips for the box. SO, we are then CONSTRUCTING A NETWORK, and we combine the two clips as we want(in the sample above i added a math operator and i mixed the two animations so the end result is clip a+ clip B - you can't do this in SI). Now, let's say that i need to stretch one of them; well i add a stretch node! This way i don't touch the clips themself so everything is procedural. I can input how much to stretch the clips and then, add a cycle with offset. Let's say that the client ask me after i finished the editing to reduce the stretch. Now, if i am in Maya or SI at this point i bang my head to the desk because i need to redo everything, but in the above sample i just modify the stretch node to the new value, and the change propagates down the network! It's mind blowing how it works. I might not be the best teacher though, since i am only using it for about 2 months, but there is a full episode on CHOPS over to the sidefx site(Ari Danesh lessons, and are free). Ah, and by the way you can work with audio files to drive the motion! It's a very-very powerful tool, like i said AM on steroids. Just look at the options on the solve nodes only!
Thank you
Attachments
timing_clip_functions_large.jpg

pluMmet
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pluMmet » 09 Apr 2014, 18:34

pcd wrote:Do your own search
pluMmet wrote:Hmmm I'll look into what you said but I did do my reasearch and by typing "motion mixer" into google I got a 1 month old thread on the sidefx forum that said they do not have a motion mixer.

So something is not jiving here and it's not due to my lack of effort :P

If Houdini has no panel like this
Image

Then you are too much of a Dictionphile for me.
pluMmet wrote:Google "Houdini animation chops"

I can get a speaker to reviberate using audio very well with chops

Google "Houdini charater animation chops"

*crickets
pcd wrote:try to be polite, because if i call you a retard, it's not the way to talk. I answered to your false statements about Houdini.So please avoid me.
Lets get straight who started in on who here:
pcd wrote:Well, maybe if you spend some time learning you.... So please, when you do an affirmation make sure it's true. So i am glad i switched over to Houdini already but feel free to go witchever route you want. Just make sure you don't wrote things witch aren't true....
pcd wrote: So, go ahead and learn a bit about what you want to use before bashing it. It might not be as visual appealing as animation mixer, but it's has so much more functionality that i already switched to Houdini.....

I have yet to see any info from Google or you on how 'great" Houdini is with character animation mixing just a lot of self important responses.

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Tekano
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by Tekano » 09 Apr 2014, 21:47

the grammatical errors being made in this thread are shocking. cannot sit and judge as its natural to assume non native English speakers, and, if I had to attempt some clean simple proper sentences in your languages then the result would be a heinous crime indeed.

so, skipping over that, dear both. I can see your points. a little bit more understanding of the others needs will be beneficial here. please allow me to translate.

Plummet:Q: does Houdini have a simple, easy to use animation mixer - with tracks and animation clips and NLE mixing like a video editor?

Pcd:A: No, but it 'can' do most of these tasks procedural with nodes and graph instead of tracks and clips, which opens up a lot more scope for different workflows for the same end results
Gossip is what no one claims to like, but everybody enjoys.

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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by Hirazi Blue » 09 Apr 2014, 22:05

Tekano wrote:the grammatical errors being made in this thread are shocking
I have pointed this out to others on earlier occasions, so it seems only fair to point it out again: Criticism (however mild/implicit) of the language skills of non-English members of a world-wide community like ours is considered bad form...
;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

pluMmet
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pluMmet » 09 Apr 2014, 22:55

I understand that Houdini has a powerfull procidural CHOPS mixer that is neat with lots of things like particles.

The problem is that Houdini as it stands now looks like a great particle system with an animation package wraped around it as an after thought.

Character animation is the heart of all of these and gentalmen Houdini aint got it.

I wish it did considering what AD has done to si.

All info I have seen says that CHOPS is not intuitive or effieient in reguards to the most important aspect of an Animation Mixer which is probabley why there are no results in Google for Animation Mixer in Houdini.

Retard means slow... SideFX is very late to the party being @ release 13 without a proper character animation method.

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grendizer
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by grendizer » 09 Apr 2014, 23:34

Retard means slow
LOL, I think this is what triggered this big fight. You meant "solw" but PCB understood "retard"

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Tekano
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by Tekano » 09 Apr 2014, 23:40

pluMmet wrote:
Retard means slow... SideFX is very late to the party being @ release 13 without a proper character animation method.
ah ok well in UK a 'retard' is like a severely mentally challenged person and is an extreme insult. cultural differences aside using the word retard in this fashion was wrong. for you to use it in a sentence (and get away with it being used properly) would be something like.

"I believe the development of character animation & track mixing of clips in Houdini is happening at an extremely retarded pace"

and yet you wrote:
pluMmet wrote: Am I missing something wonderfull or are You a Full Retard?
so yes you did call him 'slow' which again is pretty insulting, no?

but anyway yes, they (Houdini) I guess, have not had much demand for that side of things yet, even after 13 releases. also have you visited the sideFX forum for Softimage users and asked this question? it may be possible to wrap some kind of a GUI into a lot of functions, a digital asset or whatever its called :) to do some kind of track based editing and blending in Houdini.. who knows if anyone tried yet?

finally, just want to add, old Softimage aint going anywhere for a while. I intend to be using it well into its 30's so stick with it whilst checking out other options and until there is better and have the luxury to do so, then don't switch and use both when in the transition... As for interop between future apps and animation clips of your rigs... not much hope there unless there becomes some kind of universal standard for rigging which I have not seen yet, but you could get some milage using a motion capture format like .bvh etc but do alembic animation clips appear in the animation mixer i wonder? if not its simple to make them into shapes and bake out the results of your mixing. so as long as you are good to get stuff in and out you are OK, just saying..
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pluMmet
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pluMmet » 10 Apr 2014, 00:28

Tekano wrote:
pluMmet wrote:
Retard means slow... SideFX is very late to the party being @ release 13 without a proper character animation method.
ah ok well in UK a 'retard' is like a severely mentally challenged person and is an extreme insult. cultural differences aside using the word retard in this fashion was wrong. for you to use it in a sentence (and get away with it being used properly) would be something like.

"I believe the development of character animation & track mixing of clips in Houdini is happening at an extremely retarded pace"

and yet you wrote:
pluMmet wrote: Am I missing something wonderfull or are You a Full Retard?
so yes you did call him 'slow' which again is pretty insulting, no?

but anyway yes, they (Houdini) I guess, have not had much demand for that side of things yet, even after 13 releases. also have you visited the sideFX forum for Softimage users and asked this question? it may be possible to wrap some kind of a GUI into a lot of functions, a digital asset or whatever its called :) to do some kind of track based editing and blending in Houdini.. who knows if anyone tried yet?

finally, just want to add, old Softimage aint going anywhere for a while. I intend to be using it well into its 30's so stick with it whilst checking out other options and until there is better and have the luxury to do so, then don't switch and use both when in the transition... As for interop between future apps and animation clips of your rigs... not much hope there unless there becomes some kind of universal standard for rigging which I have not seen yet, but you could get some milage using a motion capture format like .bvh etc but do alembic animation clips appear in the animation mixer i wonder? if not its simple to make them into shapes and bake out the results of your mixing. so as long as you are good to get stuff in and out you are OK, just saying..
i am fully aware of the negavtive connitations of the word however using any negative word in assosiation with an inanimate object (weird pun here I guess lol) has never been an issue ie. this junk car of your is ass.

I refrained from being nasty to the fellow even after he ignored my reply that I had indeed searched for the information and he again suggested that I was inept in not understanding his brilliance.

As far as my (our) problems with animation packages I love Messiah Studio for animating but I don't know honestly how to get proper deformations out of it much less take the less then enhanced defformations (muscle bulges and wrinkles, self collisions) to another package for futher work so I would just use it to create mocap files to put into a package like Houdini for futher refinement but without a proper animation mixer....

Pipeline is a big topic but to me it's just a word for packages that lack being strung together creating issue after issue hence I want that pipeline to be as short as possible.

I knew from years back researching Houdini that it sucked at character animation and modeling but that was years ago and I had no reason to believe that it was such a retarded program :P

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Mathaeus
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by Mathaeus » 10 Apr 2014, 01:20

pluMmet wrote:
As far as my (our) problems with animation packages I love Messiah Studio for animating but I don't know honestly how to get proper deformations out of it much less take the less then enhanced defformations (muscle bulges and wrinkles, self collisions) to another package for futher work so I would just use it to create mocap files to put into a package like Houdini for futher refinement but without a proper animation mixer....
Yeah it doesn't have such functionality. I think even plotting has to be done... manually. And who knows what else, of basic functions, does not exist. Anyway, what's most fascinating with such systems, including ICE, it is believing, that everyone who have a mid level kitchen, should be able to do the same as master chef, veteran.
Another fascinating thing is a kind of revolutionary passion, where every damn common procedure gets a new 'value', just because it is performed in new way. It's not ordinary shrink wrap anymore, it's ICE shrink wrap. The same engine behind, but who cares. Few irrelevant options more, enough to justify the ergonomic stone age. And yes, it's not AD, it is a small honest company who just asking $$$$ for this thing.

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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pcd » 10 Apr 2014, 07:42

pluMmet wrote:thx because Houdini is full retard @ 13 releases w/o animation mixer.

Lets get straight who started in on who here:

I have yet to see any info from Google or you on how 'great" Houdini is with character animation mixing just a lot of self important responses.
You started this non-sense attacks against the software on witch most of the SI switchers go to and you keep going on with it. So it looks to me like you are an autodesk employer or reseller pissed off at Houdini getting your clients. Keep repeating 'Houdini has no character animation tools' even after i showed you CHOPS and procedural animation way above your beloved Maya, will not make the former SI users not to switch. Keeping Softimage alive will prevent this. And by the way i have pose library, auto-character rigging tools very easy to use, very nice weights tools(witch by the way don't distribute the bone influence random over the mesh as Maya does, so i don't need 1 week to paint weights on my biped) dedicated procedural animation tools for characters so i don't know where you get this 'it does not have character animation tools' from. But yea, keep on repeating this, maybe this will bring clients back to you. Oh no, wait, actually putting features in your software will. And by the way, if you really want to learn a software you might go with other learning channels then Google. And since you look like you can't find things even using Google let me give you some help. Here is a full blown DVD about Houdini character animation. The fun part is that is done by the former XSI instructor and teacher Christopher Tedin. Enjoy your lecture:

https://cmivfx.com/store/574-houdini+animation+principles

End a film production rig you may really want to take a look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6Lue1TMZU

pluMmet
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pluMmet » 10 Apr 2014, 08:55

pcd wrote:
pluMmet wrote:thx because Houdini is full retard @ 13 releases w/o animation mixer.

Lets get straight who started in on who here:

I have yet to see any info from Google or you on how 'great" Houdini is with character animation mixing just a lot of self important responses.
You started this non-sense attacks against the software on witch most of the SI switchers go to and you keep going on with it. So it looks to me like you are an autodesk employer or reseller pissed off at Houdini getting your clients. Keep repeating 'Houdini has no character animation tools' even after i showed you CHOPS and procedural animation way above your beloved Maya, will not make the former SI users not to switch. Keeping Softimage alive will prevent this. And by the way i have pose library, auto-character rigging tools very easy to use, very nice weights tools(witch by the way don't distribute the bone influence random over the mesh as Maya does, so i don't need 1 week to paint weights on my biped) dedicated procedural animation tools for characters so i don't know where you get this 'it does not have character animation tools' from. But yea, keep on repeating this, maybe this will bring clients back to you. Oh no, wait, actually putting features in your software will. And by the way, if you really want to learn a software you might go with other learning channels then Google. And since you look like you can't find things even using Google let me give you some help. Here is a full blown DVD about Houdini character animation. The fun part is that is done by the former XSI instructor and teacher Christopher Tedin. Enjoy your lecture:

https://cmivfx.com/store/574-houdini+animation+principles

End a film production rig you may really want to take a look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6Lue1TMZU

I looked at the information you linked and let me start by saying that that is a wonderful rig.

Unfortunately that is not at all the topic of my contention.

You also linked a video for me to presumably purchase because you could not find any free example of what I am saying which right out of the gate seems a bit odd.

I never claimed that I could not animate a biped in Houdini so that link is proof of nothing but your ignorance.

The contention I have is specifically the ease with which one can animate a character by hand with an animation mixer and the fact that Houdini has gotten to release 13 without this basic tool.

You are deluding yourself that CHOPS can do what an animation mixer can and you are deluding yourself that I have any love for AD.

pluMmet
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by pluMmet » 10 Apr 2014, 09:00

Mathaeus wrote:
pluMmet wrote:
As far as my (our) problems with animation packages I love Messiah Studio for animating but I don't know honestly how to get proper deformations out of it much less take the less then enhanced defformations (muscle bulges and wrinkles, self collisions) to another package for futher work so I would just use it to create mocap files to put into a package like Houdini for futher refinement but without a proper animation mixer....
Yeah it doesn't have such functionality. I think even plotting has to be done... manually. And who knows what else, of basic functions, does not exist. Anyway, what's most fascinating with such systems, including ICE, it is believing, that everyone who have a mid level kitchen, should be able to do the same as master chef, veteran.
Another fascinating thing is a kind of revolutionary passion, where every damn common procedure gets a new 'value', just because it is performed in new way. It's not ordinary shrink wrap anymore, it's ICE shrink wrap. The same engine behind, but who cares. Few irrelevant options more, enough to justify the ergonomic stone age. And yes, it's not AD, it is a small honest company who just asking $$$$ for this thing.
I could not agree more. There has been a big missconception in the art world that "A true artist maks art reguardless of the tools." and thought that is true, poor tools hinder either the final piece or the time it took to make it. So at the end of the day with the right tools you have better art and more of it.

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Mathaeus
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Re: Additional si licenses

Post by Mathaeus » 10 Apr 2014, 12:41

pcd wrote: End a film production rig you may really want to take a look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6Lue1TMZU
[/quote]

I'd be free to act as advocatus diaboli and say that this one, really does not show anything.... impressive. Looks like author was impressed by ability to put something under envelope, not hesitating to put this trick anywhere possible. So, old fashion, imho wrong approach, based on 'let's see what this OP offers'.
Imho, much more creative would be, to go with a brand new concept, once the 3d app already doesn't offer the 'classic" workflow. Let's say
1: improved interaction - that is, rig behaves differently in manipulation and playback. Some kind of bi-directional behavior, but without (at least, visible) simulation under the hood. My wild guess, both can't be done with supplied tools.
2: what probably can be done: a way of automatic, or half-automatic procedural or simulated animation, as an comment or correction on top of hand made key-framing. Automatic calculation of 'weighting', maybe. Traditional animators won't be happy with this - but I believe this should be much more interesting.

Long story short, if 3d app is already 'different', if I'll defend the cause, I'll try to put more on that, 'different'. Wouldn't go into discussion, does it have animation mixer, trax, or not.

edit: I've removed one frequent word in this thread
Last edited by Mathaeus on 10 Apr 2014, 13:15, edited 1 time in total.

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