Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

General discussion about 3D DCC and other topics
wesserbro
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by wesserbro » 07 Jan 2017, 13:26

Mathaeus wrote:
i'm not saying having good performance is bad! Im happy when i can playback my rig smooth . I hate when i need to wait 1 min per frame for houdini fem solver to calculate, and would love to have it realtime.
But! You, as the only one in this thread to mention real maya ability, didnt name something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9X_kgc7-R8, or bunch of others cool thing coming in tons year after the year from siggraph. Instead you named ability to smoothly animate with sds on and 3 quaternion methods. And its not the rock into your yard! Its the situation where there is no real competition, as i already said.

Mathaeus wrote:When we already about, which mode of 'select with' you'd prefer in Blender. LMB for viewport which then it is RMB for graph editor or, RMB for viewport which then it is LMB for graph editor.
it may sound to good to be true, but i use RMB in both viewport and graph editor, which is blender default settings. By the way, calling playback performance a minor thing i was actually an XSI apologet, not blender (since blender has openCl deformations, and yes, because i'm crawling low in the bushes with my rigs, not having 2000 entities in them). And blender has more serious flaws, like old dependecies graph (new one is an option through command line but its raw and not very usable)

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Mathaeus
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by Mathaeus » 07 Jan 2017, 21:07

wesserbro wrote:
i'm not saying having good performance is bad! Im happy when i can playback my rig smooth . I hate when i need to wait 1 min per frame for houdini fem solver to calculate, and would love to have it realtime.
But! You, as the only one in this thread to mention real maya ability, didnt name something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9X_kgc7-R8, or bunch of others cool thing coming in tons year after the year from siggraph. Instead you named ability to smoothly animate with sds on and 3 quaternion methods. And its not the rock into your yard! Its the situation where there is no real competition, as i already said.
All the time, I'm trying to talk only from personal experience, these methods obviously are not a part of that. Also, long time ago as an gamedev artist, every morning had to listen about new and new exciting Sigraph paper, from programmer who worked in same room, perhaps I become chronically allergic since then...
Really annoying part is constant, constant usage of plain, mocap style rigs (no tendons, no influence of underlying bones..), which by self can't describe anything realistic, all that with undefined skinning (perhaps some Maya default) to show disadvantages of linear skin. While probably every idiot knows how to insert a plain interpolator on elbow or knee.
Just practically, only widely accepted method by game engines is still, twenty years old linear skin. If I'm correct, even 'benign' DQ skin is removed from Unreal, while ago, never even implemented in Unity. Nobody wanted it, from what I've heard. Here, software like Maya has advantage because out-of-the-box deformers are *not* conceptually advanced, so they are able to transfer into engines or another software, while 'hearth of deformation' actually are transformations, also easy to bake out, and cheap.
Anyway, deformations at level exposed in these movies, let's call them 'enough nice and smooth', definitively could be done by less than 255 deformers with less than 4 influences per vertex (theoretical limit of Unity), for something like full body rig minus facial rig, minus toes. But , but, only by having a very precise, mainly by machine created weighting, so, not by stupid painting, not by any of supplied automatic skinning method in Maya. That's 'practical goal' for me for now, let's say to utilize Houdini to create weighting for use in Maya.
One day when they'll put these methods on the road, as complete systems for use by final user, I'll take a look.

Regarding FEM Cloth and other cloths in H, by playing a little with grain solver in sheet mode, got nicer results on relative huge resolutions, 80K points or so, but don't know (yet) how to get effects like anisotropy with these grains - once everything is performed on points, mesh topology has no influence, it's just an uniformly deformed 'sheet'.

wesserbro
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by wesserbro » 07 Jan 2017, 22:11

Mathaeus wrote: If I'm correct, even 'benign' DQ skin is removed from Unreal,
heard that too
Mathaeus wrote: Anyway, deformations at level exposed in these movies, let's call them 'enough nice and smooth', definitively could be done by less than 255 deformers with less than 4 influences per vertex (theoretical limit of Unity)
i don't think its easy to implement that from scratch with number of deformers, but baking such deformations (and more complex too) with a tool like this https://vimeo.com/123883474would be much efficient i think.
Also, from what i've heard from any game developer i know, 255 deformers even with 2 influences sounds like a performance killer. I worked in gamedev too, and i remember this constant nagging about keeping bones as few as possible. But i've heard Unity has GPU skinning, so maybe that's a gamechanger.
Mathaeus wrote: Regarding FEM Cloth and other cloths in H, by playing a little with grain solver in sheet mode, got nicer results on relative huge resolutions, 80K points or so, but don't know (yet) how to get effects like anisotropy with these grains - once everything is performed on points, mesh topology has no influence, it's just an uniformly deformed 'sheet'.
One day i thought it would be nice to have everything you need in one cheap app like houdini became. But then i gave up, stopped fighting houdini cloth (so many good cloth solutions around), and now the only thing i need from it is FEM volumetrics\tetrahedrons :)

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Mathaeus
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by Mathaeus » 07 Jan 2017, 23:09

wesserbro wrote: Also, from what i've heard from any game developer i know, 255 deformers even with 2 influences sounds like a performance killer. I worked in gamedev too, and i remember this constant nagging about keeping bones as few as possible. But i've heard Unity has GPU skinning, so maybe that's a gamechanger.
Yeah I said 'theoretical'. Unreal is stronger. In reality is, what 'person in charge' wants, performance or good look. 'Less than 255' can go significantly down, but imho it has to be 'non generalized, still by machine weighting' to get maximum. Played a lot with this subject year ago. While thing is actually 'no skin' sequence of Houdini VOPs (so, slow and not optimized), it blends no more than two or three deformations on same place, but with precise exponential falloffs, breaks, this time described by nurbs surfaces wrapped around body. Later, found possible to get same deformations by standard skin in Maya, but also almost impossible to get a comparable falloffs, by painting or generalized sampling down do bones. A plain grid of deformers showing the same a bit smoothed deformations, goes to 800 or much more elements, from my tests.
In any case, a lot of interesting things to play with, in near future...

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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by Bullit » 08 Jan 2017, 07:53

wesserbro wrote: One day i thought it would be nice to have everything you need in one cheap app like houdini became. But then i gave up, stopped fighting houdini cloth (so many good cloth solutions around), and now the only thing i need from it is FEM volumetrics\tetrahedrons :)
Yes Cloth is one of the reasons that i don't consider Houdini yet, it was a big disappointment and completely unacceptable if the application wants to be considered as the top simulation standard DCC. From what i have seen i consider it worse than Max and Cinema 4D.

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mc_axe
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by mc_axe » 09 Jan 2017, 03:22

You wont find studios that looking for SI users and SI is EOL,,, go learn X software that still alive ,,
That kind of answer not only questioning the OPs brain function but is a dissrespect to this entire community
:-q
---
On the other hand mr Op. If you look SI as a piece of software and its real value and historic volume (not speaking about money), and not striclty from market POV. If you dont need to have job like tomorow in a studio. If you seek a different aproach. Softimage still takes almost 5 out of 5 stars , is still user friendly, clear, stable, and capable (for at least unknown amount of years) to deliver insane stuff with the less pain. Thats another harsh truth that many softwares can s**k upon , even the living ones. Its not coinsidence that the most crazy animators worldwide (that i know off) the japanese used it alot till the stupidiest dessision in the history of dcc apps.

Im learning rigging in SI right now and i learn from the SI community and it goes well. Tell me to jump to x software?..anytime... Buti cant even think of how many years later SI will be called irelevant disfunctional incapable. And for learning purposes that goes even further in the unknown future. It might be always good as a learning platform.

So i cant hide it im seriusly pissed off when any1 tells dont use SI in general in this forum, esp for learning purposes .. i go nuts. And i have a reason. That is because Softimage is so well structured, and perfect for learning. Let NO1 tell you that learning Rigging and Animation or any ther skills in SI right now, will go in vain. Why is that? Many things ()work like programming if you are real programmer you can learn any language. That is called spherical aproach to a topic, and there is nothing more valuable than that. Then you can go in X software and look at it with a different eye, that will give you ability to ask for improovments, understand things deeply, create custom tools to help your workflow etc. You will be far more flexible than others. Thats much better than simply locking your self in the sit of a sole product. Esp a high risk with softwares developed still by a company, that if it could, it would charge a change of font as yearly upgrade for 3k bucks.

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Mathaeus
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by Mathaeus » 09 Jan 2017, 15:36

mc_axe wrote:
So i cant hide it im seriusly pissed off when any1 tells dont use SI in general in this forum,
Well I think that's old question about forums around app, is it a temple of semi-religion where only positive opinion is allowed, together with unlimited respect. Or it is discussion. My vote for discussion, after all this is 'open discussion' section.
There are other aspects, too, let's say responsibility behind advice or suggestion. How I can suggest to someone, even indirectly, to learn software with so small chance, and zero chance in future, to get a job.
Negative opinion about SI, imho, could be ''inappropriate'' in 'great things done with Softimage'' thread, but, questions and answers like these in thread and section, this was usual even in old times of XSI Base.

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mc_axe
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by mc_axe » 09 Jan 2017, 16:20

How I can suggest to someone, even indirectly, to learn software with so small chance, and zero chance in future, to get a job.
I Aggree 99,5% of job openings in studios will never mention softimage.
But freealancers use it and earn money still.
But that is not the point.

I even heard here that,, SI is bad even for hobby ... do i have to be softimage religius fanatic to disagree completely with that?

The original question was about learning X skill. My point is that SI is far from being i-relevant esp for learning purposes. Thats all. So why a person has to specialize while learning from the very start, i dont get that. As a mentioned, a spherical aproach is best, and you matheus you are a guy that knows many apps simultaneusly including soft, do you regret knowing the big picture? I would suggest to any friend, learn basics in SI and then jump to maya for a job. Going str8 for 1 app, not the best way to educate.

Isnt that a even more responsible advice?

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Mathaeus
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by Mathaeus » 09 Jan 2017, 23:38

mc_axe wrote:So why a person has to specialize while learning from the very start, i dont get that. As a mentioned, a spherical aproach is best, and you matheus you are a guy that knows many apps simultaneusly including soft, do you regret knowing the big picture?
Well I think it will be slightly better for me if I become Mayan around 2004, instead of 2 + 2 years sphereing around, starting from 2004 and 2014. Somehow it ends exactly on starting position. But this was exclusively my choice, so that's it.
As the time goes by, conglomerate of everyday emotions, positive or negative, slowly became simplified into just one sign. I'm pretty sure that's big positive for SI. At least, for some unknown reason, every Maya veteran I met, wants to say something positive, how he used Softimage 3d, good old times, all that. Now, particular 'reconsideration of faith' by someone on forum, while it is unpleasant, I think it's completely irrelevant for whole picture.

For me, we are in 'end of giants' time. Now we are sure that SI is legend. But, where on the earth Maya is going, nobody knows. Movie diva known by character roles, now believing that nth and nth half done face lifting is enough to compete against... c4d and Silo :D (where second don't even exists anymore). Time will tell.

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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by NNois » 10 Jan 2017, 00:33

mc_axe wrote:Im learning rigging in SI right now and i learn from the SI community and it goes well ... Why is that? Many things ()work like programming if you are real programmer you can learn any language. That is called spherical aproach to a topic, and there is nothing more valuable than that.
Then you can go in X software and look at it with a different eye, that will give you ability to ask for improovments, understand things deeply, create custom tools to help your workflow etc. You will be far more flexible than others...
Man, that's a Softimage POV i'm afraid. Saying because of that you could switch your mind easily...
That's totally true and also totally false if you're searching to obtain the same level of skill you've had on your previous software.

I've had the same speak 1 or 2 years ago untill i re-learned evything on another software. And my experience wasn't limited to only Soft (8y exp), before I was on Lightwave (10y exp).
I can assure you that now 2 years later after the EOL i'm only 30% operating correctly on the new Software of my choice.

Don't underestimate the time you will need to understand all the tricks and go learn rigging elsewhere of Softimage that's insane !!

wesserbro
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by wesserbro » 10 Jan 2017, 01:36

While its true 'spherical approach' might not be as efficient as it sounds, where else people could get a positive attitude towards SI when not on this forum? :ympray:

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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by wesserbro » 10 Jan 2017, 01:41

NNois wrote: I can assure you that now 2 years later after the EOL i'm only 30% operating correctly on the new Software of my choice.
What is this secret app? [-(

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mc_axe
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by mc_axe » 10 Jan 2017, 01:53

Don't underestimate the time you will need to understand all the tricks and go learn rigging elsewhere of Softimage that's insane !!
You missunderstood, i totally agree with you there is no place like your favorite app, i was talking about using SI to learn the basics, and my point is that starting with SI it has benefits, In my humble opinion is good to take a glance at SI before going anywhere else to specialize. For example if i find out that an awesome tool of SI missing in X software, or that Y aproach requires unecessery steps, i can ask for improvements, because iv seen something better, others just dont know.

To conclude: i believe that as a starting point SI is tottaly relevant and a great learning tool, and not just any tool a historic one. It might be irelevant in 15 years i dont know,,, maybe if the aproach changes completely to polymodeling to animation to rendering or anything else. But call in it irelevant right now is like calling space shuttle a thing irelevant to space.

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Mathaeus
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by Mathaeus » 10 Jan 2017, 02:32

wesserbro wrote:While its true 'spherical approach' might not be as efficient as it sounds, where else people could get a positive attitude towards SI when not on this forum? :ympray:
Long time ago, coming in SI wagon with XSI 4, I've been really impressed by the fact, that people on former XSI base had exact, authentic opinion, about all aspects of SI. Positive or negative, doesn't matter - they really used the thing, from top to bottom.

For comparison, been long time POV-Ray hobbyist before, and POV-Ray mailing list (as maybe everything in 90's), was a mix of useful answers and switches to unlimited adoration, whenever truth was unpleasant or simply we had no answer. At some point this become annoying enough of to leave the board.
Exactly it was about upcoming feature called multi threading, which was an unreachable goal for team of volunteers, so development more or less, stopped. People tried to minimize or forget the problem. For a while it was somehow better, no need to learn new version, there still were new strong single core processors, Athlon Thunderbird and so. Few years later it was almost forgotten app - and I 'switched' directly into hands of renderer called Mental Ray. The rest is a dark history about heroic trials to survive :D. Ok I'm exaggerating here. Of course I'm not regretting about anything, regretting is for smart people, not for stubborn idiots like me, hehe :D

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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by Bullit » 10 Jan 2017, 09:36

That is not my experience, when i arrived to XSI also in 2004 there was full elitism in XSI land for Mentalray while Vray and Finalrender where despised as the push of the button renders. Well with a push of button render i could get much better work than what i was seeing done with Mentalray. Only much latter people in Softimage wake up to that new world.
Today it is renders like Redshift -and Arnold - that are extending Softimage life.

Now more than 10 years Vray is approaching Mentalray status... and being pushed by Corona, Redshift, FStorm, Arnold(albeit no competing in Arch jobs) etc...

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mc_axe
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Re: Animation and Rigging in Softimage after years

Post by mc_axe » 10 Jan 2017, 15:17

I came from Maya with a forced migration, software wars was harsh back then, and SI users was a minority. So elitism was there with Si being the best by a gr8 margin, but there was also cool guys. I critisized and writen bugs or i asked for improovments or tools many times in XSI Base, here, and elsewere, esp. while AD was slacking with development... So im not the guy that wants a forum with "only positive opinions and infinite respect", or a forum that we all pretend Softimage status is different.

But here i see the exact oposite, i feel sometimes tht Im inside the temple of death and calling SI positive names will cost me a horible death :P.. I see ppl calling SI,, bad even for hobbiysts whle ILM still use it for major cgi, that they call the most advanced thing we ever did. With that logic, hobiysts are more demanding, than ILM and im an alien in the moon, hello.

A new guy came in he asked if SI is still good for learning. Yes it is.Even the super vilain AD has a free student version so go grab that.Y/day i introduced a new guy to softimage and we both happy. Ill introduce even more guys in the future, ill welcome new users to that historic piece of software even if they just want to take a glance at it. I dont feel iresponsible cause im not liyng about SI status.

I dont believe this forum has no reason to exist or no reasson to recieve new users.

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