Siggraph 2011

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Rez007
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Rez007 » 16 Aug 2011, 17:57

ActionArt wrote:
Rez007 wrote:Just saw this posted on CGTalk, but I wanted to post this here as well.

http://www.nvidia.com/content/siggraph/ ... dering.pdf

http://www.nvidia.com/content/siggraph/ ... racing.pdf

Looks like some nice things coming for Mental Ray...
Thanks! That's the info I was looking for. I really like where there headed. Lots of great goals. Accelerating some functions of MR seems like the most common sense way to go at this point. Looks like AO will be first. I'm really hoping ray marching for volume rendering will be in there somewhere. For me AO takes a few minutes but volume rendering takes hours or even days. Some GPU help in that area would make a huge impact for me. I know they demoed some volume rendering a few times a couple years ago.

Just a shame the hardware has been around for 2 or 3 years already but the software is still a distant mirage.

At least it's nice to see Nvidia seems to have put a little new life into MR and they're going in the right direction.
It is neat to see what they have coming. Eventhough I really like the new features that Softimage is getting for the SAP, after seeing the new iRay update/enhancements videos for Max - that would have been sweet as well...

Chris_TC
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Chris_TC » 16 Aug 2011, 20:52

Yes, I'd love to have iRay. We'll get it eventually though, and the integration is likely going to be awesome.

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ActionArt
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by ActionArt » 16 Aug 2011, 21:06

I really hope so. Those great devs at SI usually seem to take a bit longer but the results are far better and much more usable than the other two.

I hope they notice that yes we want it :D

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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Lord Futzi Voldemort » 17 Aug 2011, 15:05

luceric wrote:
Hirazi Blue wrote:Or to put it in (slightly more serious) words: there are some features that really appeal to me (the selection stuff mainly), but overall and especially after the inclusion of all them highly necessary model meshes, this SAP doesn't feel like a 2012.5 IMHO, more like a 2012.05. For some of the new features I have already been using user sitcripts/addons, so while it's nice they are included in the software now, I'm not terribly overwhelmed by them.
So it doesn't feel like 4 month of work, but something of a bug fix that should have taken a few hours? Btw except the one shot selection commands, none of this is really available as addons.

Yeah, the selection options have always been here. This release only changes the method to maya style, which is not the best one IMO, just try to select two parallel adjacent polyloops with this method. So it´s not a new feature at all. (Angle based selection or other selection filters would have been more useful, but even those are available with the rc tools I believe)
There have always been alternative methods for capping holes, and normal extrusions were achieved using the famous move-normal addon combined with the extrude, so here things are only made simpler, but it´s more like delivering somthing, that should´ve been in si for a while, but wasn´t. It´s a fix.
There are at least two thickness addons I use regularly, tiny thickness and tim_shell, tiny thickness has almost the same functionality as the "new" one.
That leaves us with spin edges, smooth edgeloop (a good one! ) and slice between two vertices (also a good one), bullet integration (helpful to only a small percentage of users) and, oh yes, new models and even better, new sample scenes.
3 new features and the integration of a third party tech. Wow.
Even Mr. Scheonagel hadn´t enough new features to present at siggraph, so he needed to present the (undoubtetly brilliant) work of others, and still had two minutes left. And when was it, I saw dropping complex objects on other objects in realtime lately? Oh yes... every day. Impressive.

Well, and all this considering the recent pricechange for softimage and the subscription fee, gee, why wouldn´t I jump in joy?

That is exactly what we expected to happen, when si was bought by autodesk, just browse the old threads... That happened to the max useres then (I was one) and the maya users as well ( I am one now). No surprise at all.

My monthly rant.

Achim
I'm now part of an endangered species...

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Memag
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Memag » 17 Aug 2011, 17:03

Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote: Yeah, the selection options have always been here. This release only changes the method to maya style, which is not the best one IMO, just try to select two parallel adjacent polyloops with this method. So it´s not a new feature at all. (Angle based selection or other selection filters would have been more useful, but even those are available with the rc tools I believe)
There have always been alternative methods for capping holes, and normal extrusions were achieved using the famous move-normal addon combined with the extrude, so here things are only made simpler, but it´s more like delivering somthing, that should´ve been in si for a while, but wasn´t. It´s a fix.
There are at least two thickness addons I use regularly, tiny thickness and tim_shell, tiny thickness has almost the same functionality as the "new" one.
That leaves us with spin edges, smooth edgeloop (a good one! ) and slice between two vertices (also a good one), bullet integration (helpful to only a small percentage of users) and, oh yes, new models and even better, new sample scenes.
3 new features and the integration of a third party tech. Wow.
Even Mr. Scheonagel hadn´t enough new features to present at siggraph, so he needed to present the (undoubtetly brilliant) work of others, and still had two minutes left. And when was it, I saw dropping complex objects on other objects in realtime lately? Oh yes... every day. Impressive.

Well, and all this considering the recent pricechange for softimage and the subscription fee, gee, why wouldn´t I jump in joy?

That is exactly what we expected to happen, when si was bought by autodesk, just browse the old threads... That happened to the max useres then (I was one) and the maya users as well ( I am one now). No surprise at all.

My monthly rant.

Achim
Double click selection methods can be found in Silo, VoidWorld, Modo...I wouldn't say it is exclusively Maya's method. RC tools are great BTW but don't have double click method.
If you want you can check VoidWorld and see what kind of selections you can do with mouse double clicks.You wouldn't need RC tools for selection at all if we had them in SI.
Spin edges, smooth loop and cut between vertices is nothing new either, but it's new to Softimage toolset.
Thickness/cap hole/slice are ICe compounds so you can customize 'em and make your own tools, being open is an advantage over conventional plugins.
People been rumoring about the death since AD acquisition but Si is still kicking. Sure it is never enough of features and the price is high.
Let's see what the gloomy future brings.
Last edited by Memag on 17 Aug 2011, 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

luceric
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by luceric » 17 Aug 2011, 18:53

btw, before the Autodesk acquisition, there wouldn't have been any new build with new features at this time. The release cycle was 14 months on average.

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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Lord Futzi Voldemort » 17 Aug 2011, 19:33

luceric wrote:btw, before the Autodesk acquisition, there wouldn't have been any new build with new features at this time. The release cycle was 14 months on average.
Yes, until they found out you get more maintenance users with pointreleases...

Anyway, I don´t want to criticise any of the work you guys do for softimage. I only think, there could have been more useful additions.
For example freeing the "alt" key completely, so you can have alt navigation like in most other packages. Doubleclick selection could have done that - almost - but I fear, the problem with parallel polyloops as it is in maya, will not make alt selection redundant...

But honestly: including sample scenes in the feature list just shows how desperate autodesk is....

Achim
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Hirazi Blue » 17 Aug 2011, 19:46

@Lord Futzi Voldemort
Phew, you dodged a bullet (no pun intended) there. #:-s
You weren't even contradicted...
;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Lord Futzi Voldemort » 17 Aug 2011, 19:58

:)

To make that clear: the overall amount of additions is not the issue here. I´m the first one who would demand less new features for the sake of reliability.... and usefulness...

Achim
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Chris_TC
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Chris_TC » 17 Aug 2011, 21:02

Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote:using the famous move-normal addon combined with the extrude [...]
There are at least two thickness addons I use regularly [...]
Am I the only one who hates, hates, hates having to bother with external plugins? I'm very glad that we get functionality out of the box.

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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Rez007 » 17 Aug 2011, 21:10

Chris_TC wrote:
Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote:using the famous move-normal addon combined with the extrude [...]
There are at least two thickness addons I use regularly [...]
Am I the only one who hates, hates, hates having to bother with external plugins? I'm very glad that we get functionality out of the box.
+1

The only "external" anything that I have running in Softimage is Rork's material conversion that he did - which is a time saver.

- If I pay $3,000+ in addition to my Subscription fee ~$900.00 I don't feel that I should have to rely on plug-ins to do things, I much rather prefer "out of box." I am pretty happy with the new additions, as it looks like other componants are being looked at like the modeling area - that was nice. I really wish iRay would have been in as that would have "beefed" up the SAP, as it seems like myself and maybe a few select others on here don't have access to Arnold...it seems like all of the AD demos that show a final product or a heavy sim are rendered out in Arnold - am I the only one who uses Mentral Ray? - it feels like it.
Last edited by Rez007 on 17 Aug 2011, 21:17, edited 2 times in total.

luceric
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by luceric » 17 Aug 2011, 21:12

Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote:For example freeing the "alt" key completely, so you can have alt navigation like in most other packages. Doubleclick selection could have done that - almost - but I fear, the problem with parallel polyloops as it is in maya, will not make alt selection redundant...
(as you know) Alt for navigation is in the Maya mode, and have sorted all the keymaps conflicts with there. We're not plannign to introduce yet another mode and keymap that's "Softimage-alt keys you're used to+Alt camera". The user can create a keymap with your own preference by copying the maya one and add back a few chosen Softimage keys. There is not a huge amount of difference, actually between the maya keymap and the Softimage one, it should be relativly easy to cook up. We just don't want to start pushing another mode on users.

can you give me more information about the "problem with parallel polyloops"?
Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote:But honestly: including sample scenes in the feature list just shows how desperate autodesk is....
Best to not de-humanize things by saying "Autodesk". The feature list that you're referring to is my team's full change list, extracted from the notes we give to the beta list, and posted by Mark on the blog. The autodesk official feature list is just three bullet points. What goes in the product is Chinny's decision, though I worked with Brent to add some of the modeling features like Flow Connect and Move Along Normal. The sample scenes are important ICE modeling tutorials Guillaume made as a result of questions from the mailing list. The new model meshes are a little more bizarre. These are the sample models from Mudbox. The thinking is to be able make multi-application suite tutorials (i.e. demo/document Send To Mudbox, for example).

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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Lord Futzi Voldemort » 18 Aug 2011, 15:23

luceric wrote:
Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote:For example freeing the "alt" key completely, so you can have alt navigation like in most other packages. Doubleclick selection could have done that - almost - but I fear, the problem with parallel polyloops as it is in maya, will not make alt selection redundant...
(as you know) Alt for navigation is in the Maya mode, and have sorted all the keymaps conflicts with there. We're not plannign to introduce yet another mode and keymap that's "Softimage-alt keys you're used to+Alt camera". The user can create a keymap with your own preference by copying the maya one and add back a few chosen Softimage keys. There is not a huge amount of difference, actually between the maya keymap and the Softimage one, it should be relativly easy to cook up. We just don't want to start pushing another mode on users.

can you give me more information about the "problem with parallel polyloops"?
Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote:But honestly: including sample scenes in the feature list just shows how desperate autodesk is....
Best to not de-humanize things by saying "Autodesk". The feature list that you're referring to is my team's full change list, extracted from the notes we give to the beta list, and posted by Mark on the blog. The autodesk official feature list is just three bullet points. What goes in the product is Chinny's decision, though I worked with Brent to add some of the modeling features like Flow Connect and Move Along Normal. The sample scenes are important ICE modeling tutorials Guillaume made as a result of questions from the mailing list. The new model meshes are a little more bizarre. These are the sample models from Mudbox. The thinking is to be able make multi-application suite tutorials (i.e. demo/document Send To Mudbox, for example).
Alt key:
There is no need for another method. What I´m saying is: if the doubleclick selection works better than in maya, there is no need to use alt selection anymore for me which I´d be perfectly happy with, because I can actually use the build in maya navigation mode, without sacrificing the ability to quickly select loops and ranges using the alt key.
The problem in maya is: You select one polyloop using doubleclick. Then if you want to select an additional (adjacent) polyloop, you need to first select one poly next to the loop you already have selected, and then doubleclick another poly that is automaticcally connected to the selected loop AND the single poly, which leaves maya 2 choices of loops to select parallel and perpendicular to the first selected loop. Half of the time maya gets it wrong.
You don´t have that problem with alt loop/range selection.
As I said, if it works better in SI than in Maya, I´m perfectly happy. No need for other modifications. The alt rightclick menues are not that important. And as a user who permantently switches between maya and si, I could use a consistent navigation key. That would make things simpler.

The list: That´s what I meant. First it looks quite impressive, but when you look closer and strip it from everything that is not exactly a feature, there is not much left. I´m sure that what you have done however, you have done perfectly, but selling that as (Quote):

"New modeling and selection tools that greatly improve productivity and ease of use"

is just not appropriate, because something I already have in another form, doesn´t improve my productivity. And I personally don´t care if it´s ICE and I could edit it, because if I could edit it, I could implement it myself.

As for the send to mudbox: Is the UV seams bug fixed? it isn´t in Sp1... otherwise the send to mudbox function is useless and so are the samplescenes.
And speaking of multi application suites: see "Alt key".


Achim
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Memag
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Memag » 18 Aug 2011, 16:49

Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote: Alt key:
There is no need for another method. What I´m saying is: if the doubleclick selection works better than in maya, there is no need to use alt selection anymore for me which I´d be perfectly happy with, because I can actually use the build in maya navigation mode, without sacrificing the ability to quickly select loops and ranges using the alt key.

Achim
I use "Q" key for loop/range.
When holding Q (select tool) I get loop/range ability.
Easy to rememberl and faster than ALT.

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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by Lord Futzi Voldemort » 18 Aug 2011, 17:22

Wooops! Thanks for the heads up.
And I lived for years under the impression, range selection was hardcoded to "Alt". Never seen it in the Key mapping Editor.
This changes a lot of course, you may ignore, dump, delete or burn my posting about the alt key thing thing.

This however questions the need of another loopslectionmethod even more. ;)

Achim
I'm now part of an endangered species...

luceric
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Re: Siggraph 2011

Post by luceric » 18 Aug 2011, 18:26

Lord Futzi Voldemort wrote: Alt key:
There is no need for another method. What I´m saying is: if the doubleclick selection works better than in maya, there is no need to use alt selection anymore for me which I´d be perfectly happy with, because I can actually use the build in maya navigation mode, without sacrificing the ability to quickly select loops and ranges using the alt key.
The problem in maya is: You select one polyloop using doubleclick. Then if you want to select an additional (adjacent) polyloop, you need to first select one poly next to the loop you already have selected, and then doubleclick another poly that is automaticcally connected to the selected loop AND the single poly, which leaves maya 2 choices of loops to select parallel and perpendicular to the first selected loop. Half of the time maya gets it wrong.
I think it's going to be the same as maya. Double-click in polygon mode selects polygon island. If double-click with Shift, it selects a 'path' to the last selected polygon. In softimage it actually doesn't need to be a straight path, our mesh walker will figure it out. In edge mode, double-click it selects edge loops.

it saves time+trouble to model with edge loops instead of polygon loops.

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