the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

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Hirazi Blue
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the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Hirazi Blue » 22 Apr 2012, 16:54

All the events of the last couple of weeks have obviously created a lot of frustration and even anger with some of us Softimage users, who are rightfully fearful that the future of their beloved software isn't all that bright, now that most of the development team jumped ship collectively. Venting frustration and even anger can be a good thing. Someone, however, suggested per PM that we closed the "sightings" thread because it was critical of Autodesk. I already told the person who wrote this, that this is most definitely NOT the case (we closed that specific thread because it seemed evident that it was spiraling out of control). I am specifically opening this thread as a place to discuss the future of Softimage and to show that I think it's not a bad idea to vent your frustration in times like this (as long as everyone remains respectful). I would however ask (very strongly) to keep it all civil... (I will close down this experiment at the first sign of trouble.)

My own opinion:
In the end we'll have to accept there being a new team of developers & I for one wish them well...
Or as Chinny put it "Softimage is mature enough now and in very capable hands."

Discuss... ;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by bottleofram » 22 Apr 2012, 17:32

Well, let me be the first to help the matters a little bit. The question i have raised about education center not recommending softimage has been cleared by EricTRocks and an autodesk employe, Jen Goldfinch.

It turns out, student site is coded so it does two things:
1. not recommend the software you've already downloaded
2. and to list only first five applications on the front page

So that puts that to rest.

The other point i would like to make is not as pleasant.

Hirazi just reminded me about Chinny's famous "the future is bright" massage. It came early 2010 i believe. As we now know, it was around that time they started the big migration plan (might have been earlier, but definitely not later). I'm torn about what to think of it.

If i remember correctly, he even said that one of the options to increase the revenue for softimage was to raise up the license/subscription fees which is not preferable way. Well, the fees have increased in europe and they decided not to offer silver subs for softimage (which is ridicules).

And now, suddenly, a completely new dev team. Might turn out well, or it might not. In my experience, such a drastic change is a very risky move and i cannot comprehend how it came about.


Yeah, the frustrations have been piling up, that's for sure...

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by luceric » 22 Apr 2012, 18:16

About the price increase in Europe. That wasn't part of any strategy, and the price didn't change elsewhere. There was a EU price exception in place for Softimage at acquisition time to transition existing customers, and after a certain date (2 years after acquisition closed I think?) the price reverted to the standard rules Autodesk uses for all products (including CAD), which are based on some formulas an US dollars. Autodesk products are.. more expensive in EU.

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Bellsey » 22 Apr 2012, 18:59

Pricing in the EU is always an issue for Autodesk, due to the trading conditions and competition laws. I don't know all the rules, but whenever a company is acquired like with Softimage, imposing a limit (like the 2yrs mentioned) stops Autodesk from simply increasing prices straight away and exploiting customers. But then after the limitations have past, companies have to revise the pricing structure, so there's more of a balance between the products.

Also, with trading in the EU, we're not allowed to 'favour' a particular country and/or reseller. So if a UK customers wants to buy their software or subs from another EU country, they are free to do .

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Hirazi Blue » 22 Apr 2012, 22:05

I think bottleofram also mentioned the infamous "silver subs" (and rightfully so...) :-
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Bellsey » 22 Apr 2012, 23:46

Hirazi Blue wrote:I think bottleofram also mentioned the infamous "silver subs" (and rightfully so...) :-
Yeah, well I don't have an answer to that one. I'm not privy to the types of decisions made in that respect. I can only speculate, which would only fuel the fire, so I won't.

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by luceric » 23 Apr 2012, 00:02

I think the info is out there to figure out the subscription thing. Someone already posted that the majority of Softimage clients are on subscription and getting the software that way. It's what makes Softimage work.

One thing that can mitigates that for individuals is that many also need a copy of Max or Maya, and for a Premium Suite subscription is 1000$ for the entire suite (ex: Max/Maya+mudbox+motionbuilder+softimage, and apparently sketchbook designer), vs 800$ for just Softimage.

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by bottleofram » 23 Apr 2012, 11:28

luceric wrote:I think the info is out there to figure out the subscription thing. Someone already posted that the majority of Softimage clients are on subscription and getting the software that way.
Majority are on a subscription therefor no silver subs? Not sure i follow.
luceric wrote:One thing that can mitigates that for individuals is that many also need a copy of Max or Maya
...
Do they really? What for?

Im sorry, but this is just typical. First, autodesk molds the customers the way they want them to be, than use that as an excuse for their decisions. For example, Softimage creation suite is available in Japan. Obviously, there are quite a few people out there who think its a complete 3d package, self-sufficient and capable... But thats not really what AD needs, is it? They need an expensive plugin for max and maya so they sell it and promote it as one. Finally, when people get on board with that, you say a lot of the customers also use max and maya. Well, big surprise.

The sad thing is, i can only see this getting worse and worse. Milking the last dime out of customers is what big conglomerates do and AD is becoming an expert in its own right.

Also, consider the following: Softimage users who opt for Entertainment Suite in order to use mudbox and motionbuilder, are also financing the respective developments of max and maya. This is just brilliant considering how Soft just donated its development team to one of those two. ;)

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Hirazi Blue » 23 Apr 2012, 12:02

@bottleofram - I think our frustration with the financial escapades of Autodesk is quite legitimate. The reasons "they" think they have for doing it "their" way, while valid in their own right, aren't really sufficient to explain away our idea of "injustice" in this manner. Luc-Erics Suite argument probably is the way the people at Autodesk are thinking, as they do seem to have adopted the Suite idea as their main way of doing business, but it doesn't really explain why there still are "silver subs" for Max & Maya. If there is a good reason not to offer it for Softimage, there seems to be no good reason to keep on offering to Max & Maya users.
:ymdevil:

PS As a quick reminder: this is still the "frustration" thread, not the "silver subs" thread. Feel free to jump in with other "frustrations"... In the mean time there's no reason NOT to continue this line of thought, as far as I am concerned...
:p
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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Bellsey » 23 Apr 2012, 13:40

I think the whole think simply comes down to legacy. Softimage has always had a level of support that equals Autodesk's Gold and they've just kept it like that, for now anyway. Going forward, who knows, Autodesk itself is going through many changes right now, kinda like a company reboot you might say.

But I think you're right, Suites are probably the main driver here, as it is a big focus for Autodesk. And they may have kept things as they are so they can get the pricing on the Suites right without breaking rules. To some Suites look just like a 'bundle', but they're not. They're listed as specific products and therfore have to follow similar rules. You can't just through software together and slap a price on it - this was one of the reasons why they had to rename Toxik to include it with Maya, Max and Soft.

I think what Luc-Eric was meaning was for anyone who might have the need to use the other products, then the Suite does make sense. When you look at the products you get and the price of Subs. The Suite Subs price on 4-5 products is only just a little extra than paying Subs on just one. From a financial point of view, the logic is sound and makes sense.

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Paulrus » 23 Apr 2012, 15:33

Frustration thread, eh?

So here we go.... While I am confident the new Softimage crew are very competent and are going to do just fine, I still believe the fact that they took a group of very experienced, proven people from Softimage and ADDED them to the Maya team sends a strong signal to the market that Maya is THE platform (or the next generation of AD 3D software will grow out of Maya).

When AD bought Softimage one of the things that was trumpeted to the masses was - this is a good thing because we're now all in the same building, collaboration will greatly enhance all 3 of the apps, etc. etc. etc. But now a good chunk of the SI team is in Singapore, which directly contradicts the previous message.

As far as the whole subscription issue and suites... why the heck can't I buy a Softimage suite? I do not understand the reasoning behind offering it in Japan only. Especially if you look at the Softimage download from the subscription center - it's Softimage English/Japanese. So we're already getting the Japanese version anyway. Is it such a significant cost to AD to make it available in North America? If they're worried about physical media costs, then just offer it as download-only. But at least give people the option.

Overall my opinion of Autodesk is as low as it's ever been. It's a company full of suits and CAD geeks who don't know squat about the companies they've acquired. They make decisions based on a balance sheet and have zero vision. I worked at a large conglomerate like AD back in the late 90's and AD gives every indication it works in the same idiotic manner. It's ruled by committee, meetings, whiteboards, "action items", and people who use phrases like "we need to think outside the box".

What they truly need is to step back from all their creative software, find a "Steve Jobs" type person who really truly understands our market and has a strong-clear vision, put him/her in charge, and then get the heck out of the way.

Is that enough frustration?

-Paul

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by luceric » 23 Apr 2012, 16:26

Hirazi Blue wrote:@bottleofram - I think our frustration with the financial escapades of Autodesk is quite legitimate. The reasons "they" think they have for doing it "their" way, while valid in their own right, aren't really sufficient to explain away our idea of "injustice" in this manner. Luc-Erics Suite argument probably is the way the people at Autodesk are thinking, as they do seem to have adopted the Suite idea as their main way of doing business, but it doesn't really explain why there still are "silver subs" for Max & Maya. If there is a good reason not to offer it for Softimage, there seems to be no good reason to keep on offering to Max & Maya users.
I'm surprised my post wasn't understood, I hope I can make it right without stepping outside of what's allowable to discuss. Softimage's business has always (i.e. since the 90s) been entirely based on support/subscription. This does is not the case for Max and Maya because they sell ton of new seats and upgrades, and few users are on subscription. But Softimage is a niche product with a tiny and stable user base, most of which are already on gold subscription. So considering cheaper options that would accommodate most users for less is very similar to considering a global price cut, as opposed to an additional bonus.

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Hirazi Blue » 23 Apr 2012, 17:00

I don't think you were misunderstood. The problem with these kind of things is that the company has, understandably, a completely different perspective from the user. I don't think it's about understanding, it's about perspective.
But let's not argue endlessly about this! The "silver subs" will quite obviously never materialize for Softimage. That doesn't mean it isn't an ongoing frustration to some.
So to recap:
There is no real misunderstanding here IMHO, just a different perspective in play...
Move along people, I believe Paulrus made some interesting points...
;)
Stay safe, sane & healthy!

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by McNistor » 23 Apr 2012, 17:12

Paulrus wrote:Frustration thread, eh?

So here we go.... While I am confident the new Softimage crew are very competent and are going to do just fine, I still believe the fact that they took a group of very experienced, proven people from Softimage and ADDED them to the Maya team sends a strong signal to the market that Maya is THE platform (or the next generation of AD 3D software will grow out of Maya).

When AD bought Softimage one of the things that was trumpeted to the masses was - this is a good thing because we're now all in the same building, collaboration will greatly enhance all 3 of the apps, etc. etc. etc. But now a good chunk of the SI team is in Singapore, which directly contradicts the previous message.

As far as the whole subscription issue and suites... why the heck can't I buy a Softimage suite? I do not understand the reasoning behind offering it in Japan only. Especially if you look at the Softimage download from the subscription center - it's Softimage English/Japanese. So we're already getting the Japanese version anyway. Is it such a significant cost to AD to make it available in North America? If they're worried about physical media costs, then just offer it as download-only. But at least give people the option.

Overall my opinion of Autodesk is as low as it's ever been. It's a company full of suits and CAD geeks who don't know squat about the companies they've acquired. They make decisions based on a balance sheet and have zero vision. I worked at a large conglomerate like AD back in the late 90's and AD gives every indication it works in the same idiotic manner. It's ruled by committee, meetings, whiteboards, "action items", and people who use phrases like "we need to think outside the box".

What they truly need is to step back from all their creative software, find a "Steve Jobs" type person who really truly understands our market and has a strong-clear vision, put him/her in charge, and then get the heck out of the way.

Is that enough frustration?

-Paul
I won't stay much on this thread as I've come to realize it'll be of no use.
Just wanted to say to Paul that that's a great rant. Not disrespectful to anyone but sharp enough to cut through a lot of bullshit.
Also, I wanted to let you know (Paul and others) that this phenomenon is universal. It transcends countries, continents, cultures and we may in the future find out that species too.
Atoms are to individuals/small companies what macro objects are to corporations. A macro entity will have internal noise but overall it cancels itself, thus making the direction to which it travels impossible to change without an external force. My point is, don't expect anytime soon to see change in AD as apparently the external force is negligible.
Cheers!
The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
-Thucydides

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by bottleofram » 23 Apr 2012, 17:48

@Luc-Eric: That is much clearer, thank you. I did not understand the first time, honestly.

Heres one im dying to find out about but it is, admittedly, a long shot... Does the profit an autodesk product makes have a direct connection with its development budget? It would make sense it does but reading a thread on max forums i noticed one post where Kenneth Pimentel seems to suggest this is not the case. Ill try to get a direct quote if necessary, but essentially it is implied that max does not have the biggest finances despite being the most profitable M&E application. Well, its pretty obvious where im going with this...

@Paulrus: Were they ever in the same building? I think they meant it metaphorically - autodesk being the building. Location hardly matters this days.

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Re: the future? (was: the "frustration" thread)

Post by Bellsey » 23 Apr 2012, 18:26

bottleofram wrote: Heres one im dying to find out about but it is, admittedly, a long shot... Does the profit an autodesk product makes have a direct connection with its development budget? It would make sense it does but reading a thread on max forums i noticed one post where Kenneth Pimentel seems to suggest this is not the case. Ill try to get a direct quote if necessary, but essentially it is implied that max does not have the biggest finances despite being the most profitable M&E application. Well, its pretty obvious where im going with this...
Good question, and to be honest I don't know. I would hazard a guess that it doesn't, not directly anyway, however a product's revenue can be tracked so they can tell how good or bad something is doing. Which in turn could contribute to development submitting their annual budgets. And of course a product/team cost in terms of resource can also be tracked and budgeted for.

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