What if Softimage died?

[angus_davidson]

I'm not going to delude myself. I need to move on eventually, and I've been using Modo quite a bit for the last 3 years, and I even want to go back to my roots -- Lightwave.

But I can easily go another 4 years with Softimage.

Not the worst idea really. Lighwave is getting pretty good once more. While Modeller is still the same old mess, Layout is what I went back to in the end as well. My old XSI 2012 and Moment of Inspiration for Modelling (and as a future ICE-Replacement ;-) http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=6514.1 ).

Thea Render is my main renderer for unbiased high-end stills...

Newtek is okay as a company once more since Rob Powers took over, MoIs Michael Gibson is fantastic, as is Theas Ioannis Pantazopoulos. Passionate People you can rely on. Fair prices. Little to no bullshit.

Modo, after an initial fascination just didn't really click for me in the end. The layered shader system it nice for 10 Materials but basically a non-debuggable mess with 100. The modelling is too close to Lightwave for my taste, has no history and after using XSI for so long feels just clunky. Many of the new features in 601 did never really work and weren't fixed in 5 service packs. I didn't bother to update after that. I only use it for it's collada export for one specific engine...
The whole software feels done by people who are overly fascinated by thinking complicated...
Not my world

YMMV of course.

Cheers,

Tom

Like you I have tried so hard to get used to the light wave Modeller because what comes after is great. Good to hear they are starting to make a serious play again.

On the Modo front a lot of your frustrations have been fixed in 701 (as of the sp3). That being said for people who need the history nothing will beat Softimage as a modeler for years to come.

[Nox]

All of these Modo problems you mentioned are my problems too...but that renderer. Damn it just looks so nice.

It's actually horrible... Also slow and noisy.

Well, several things.
- No History of any kind - a pure one-shot polygon modeller, so no extruding a spline and then modifying the spline.
(...)

Wow, thats really crappy app! Switching from rock solid XSI to such garbage is insane.

[ThomasHelzle]

Like you I have tried so hard to get used to the light wave Modeller because what comes after is great. Good to hear they are starting to make a serious play again.

On the Modo front a lot of your frustrations have been fixed in 701 (as of the sp3). That being said for people who need the history nothing will beat Softimage as a modeler for years to come.

There was a thread on the LW forum which got deleted later where the main programmer of Chronosculpt https://www.lightwave3d.com/chronosculpt/ David Ikeda talked about how they "test" the new fast modelling core in Chrono to later replace the core of modeller once it's working and has all the bells and whistles.
Since I'm covered anyway I'm under no pressure and will be happy whenever it happens.

As for Modo, yeah, I'm aware of that, I just don't approve of the business model to sell features that don't work and don't fix them in 5 servicpacks but require users to buy a rather expensive update or additional overpriced feature packs. That is the kind of company-conduct I try to avoid. I tried every modo demo since version 1 since in theory it could be perfect for me. 601 was the first I actually bought and had some fun with (it helped me to let XSI go ) but in the end there's the wrong kind of thinking behind the whole thing. Those guys are clever enough to cram some interesting ideas together but not clever enough to get it to the Zen state, like modelling in XSI.
I prefer my MoI/XSI/LW/Thea bundle since it covers more ground for way less money.
MoI, Thea and XSI modelling have a lot of Zen.

Cheers,

Tom

[angus_davidson]

All of these Modo problems you mentioned are my problems too...but that renderer. Damn it just looks so nice.

It's actually horrible... Also slow and noisy.

Well, several things.
- No History of any kind - a pure one-shot polygon modeller, so no extruding a spline and then modifying the spline.
(...)

Wow, thats really crappy app! Switching from rock solid XSI to such garbage is insane.

The reason for that is the modelling approaches are are different. You cant apply the mindset from one tool 100% to another.

For example in XSI if your modelling a pipe you would use a spline, extrude along that and when you needed to change the shape of the pipe you would then do so by changing the shape of the spline.

In modo you dont need a spline to begin with, you can just draw the pipe into the scene using the tube tool and when you want to change it you just move the draw points.

have a look at https://vimeo.com/86040815 10:08 is where it goes into making the pipe.

You cant keep on saying well this application is crap because I cant model the exactly same way I did in XSI. In XSI you need the history if you want to go back and make changes that then make changes to the polygons, in Modo you can get the same results from working with the polygons directly themselves.

[Eugen]

In modo you dont need a spline to begin with, you can just draw the pipe into the scene using the tube tool and when you want to change it you just move the draw points.

have a look at https://vimeo.com/86040815 10:08 is where it goes into making the pipe.

You cant keep on saying well this application is crap because I cant model the exactly same way I did in XSI. In XSI you need the history if you want to go back and make changes that then make changes to the polygons, in Modo you can get the same results from working with the polygons directly themselves.

Fair enough - for modeling. What if you want to animate that cable, make it swing for example? Or simply edit the path afterwards? You will start needing a modeling relation (curve -> extrusion), won't you.


Good tutorial, btw. Intersting workflow ideas. Viewport sliders complementing parameter tweaking, for example.

However, that 'destructive' workflow is just making me nervous. I'm so used to be able to go back for tweaks... that's the hardest piece of bread to swallow for me. It just withdraws so much flexibility that I wonder if it's really going to make sense.

[Nox]

you can just draw the pipe into the scene using the tube tool and when you want to change it you just move the draw points.

And when you drop the tool you can't even change tesselation or shape. Good luck adjusting it manually or drawing new pipe every time you need to change something.

The reason for that is the modelling approaches are are different. You cant apply the mindset from one tool 100% to another.

Sure, you could build everything poly by poly and call it approach. It's not about mindset, it's about efficiency. Modo's destructive workflow is objectively inferior to XSI's one.

[ThomasHelzle]

Modo's destructive workflow is objectively inferior to XSI's one.

Amen to that ;-)

Moderator edit: I've placed mkr's sad but very important next post in a new thread: Autodesk retires Softimage - HB

[angus_davidson]

Modo's destructive workflow is objectively inferior to XSI's one.

Amen to that ;-)

Moderator edit: I've placed mkr's sad but very important next post in a new thread: Autodesk retires Softimage - HB

Sadly I dont think any software will get to the same point as Softimage. For now its about what people can transition to that they can work with. For me its not a big change as I dont have have a client coming back and changing things all the time. Evens Mayas history is not great as you have to delete it frequently (or things tend to go south). AD really did a dumb thing today.

[azurecgi]

So, lets assume I 'transition' to Maya/Max (easier said than done!), and one of my clients wants some strand like stuff they've seen in my previous Softimage work.

Do either of these (sarcasm mode on) 'obviously better products' (sarcasm mode off) offer anything like strands?

[pdesopo]

So, lets assume I 'transition' to Maya/Max (easier said than done!), and one of my clients wants some strand like stuff they've seen in my previous Softimage work.

Do either of these (sarcasm mode on) 'obviously better products' (sarcasm mode off) offer anything like strands?

I can speak for Max only as I've tried to get something as close as possible to SI strands. There are workarounds to simulate the 'look' (some of the rough tests I did http://is.gd/eZgi54), but as far as I know nothing like SI strands.
In Max you can spawn particles, basically generating a trail of particles after the main have been emitted. It's kinda nice but can get slow due to the amount of particles you've to deal with. Also, is not an actual strand, but a sequence of geo (for instance spheres). The closer they are the smoother the fake strand will look, i.e. if you want a thin strand you need a lot of spawned particles.

Another option is generating splines from particles. Despite the second option seems closer to strands, at least because you deal with a spline and not a sequence of spheres to simulate the look of the strand, you can't easily handle as, again, dealing with a lot of particles/splines makes the workflow slow.

More experienced Max users may definitely get better results, either with Max Pflow or with Thinking Particles (http://youtu.be/7c4WYzr30B0 and http://is.gd/wO2ZZy). Also there examples around where Krakatoa (http://is.gd/9NcQso) is being used, results are cool but as far as I know you might hit the wall if you're looking for a particular look.

edit: and other solutions come from external plugins, such as frost, an example by John rand http://is.gd/6CaRT4
As you can see this solution relies on meshing the particles, then again not as smooth and linear as SI strands.

[MauricioPC]

Hey guys ... what a horrible day is today ... I'm really really PISSED OFF!

It was my intention to ask you guys for a way to by a license of Softimage (after March - end period) from studios and if that would be possible (don't have the money right now).

But than I got to the conclusion that it's not worth it ... because I could use Softimage but I would still be giving money to Autodesk. I'll never give one CENT to Autodesk for NOTHING.

I'll play with Softimage until my student license runs out and than I'll go to Houdini and AD can his my white ass.